[p2p-research] [ox-en] Marginalism - the religion

[Michel Bauwens]

This discussion is recurring ...

my point: while of course, immaterial goods have an underlying cost, which
could be borne by a socialized infrastructure,

the fact remains that the reproduction of immaterial goods is quite
different from the reproduction of immaterial goods

I don't know any of the proponents of a socialized internet infrastructure,
who lives in a dreamland that doesn't realize that these costs have to be
born somewhere

so, I'm wondering, why this recurring debate, what's the point?

do you Patrick, want to undo the largely socialized infrastructure, and have
people pay for every bit, rather than the workable solution we have today?

since your ownership scheme is not about to be implemented, what is the
point  you are trying to make?

Michel

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:34 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Diago,
>
> How can an industrial engineer not understand the concept of friction?
>
> If you marginalize friction, you end up coming to a screeching halt sooner
> or later.
>
> If the cost is small, it is not zero. If it's not zero it has to be paid
> for somehow or else your model (or engine) runs aground.
>
> There is no free lunch. Period.
>
> You have to socialize the cost which you are thinking of as marginal, but
> which is far greater than you seem to be able to accept.
>
> You can scale the cost in your mind anyway you wish, from holistic cost all
> the way down to marginal cost, and every scale in between but it is still
> cost and if it's not paid for by someone or society as a whole, on equal
> basis not ways that enforce scarcity and promote monopolies, then your
> engine can go on running, but if you dismiss it as marginal you're engine
> will run aground sooner or later.
>
> Marc
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Diego Saravia <diego.saravia at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> > This is a consequence of the particular pricing models used by ISPs in
>> > certain countries. Here in the UK, many ISPs have (published or
>> > unpublished) caps, e.g. 10GB or 15GB.
>>
>> yes, in some places ISP tries to do that, they know that few users
>> consume a lot of more than other, for example dowloading video or
>> sharing connections, so they charge more to change that behaviour
>>
>> but the point is not the price model of ISP, but the cost rationale of
>> internet
>>
>> once you set up the networks at certain capacity, their cost are almost
>> flat
>>
>> in fact several cell phone companies here are not charging more, but
>> slowing down you, if you move more than certain amount/month
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Yes, these caps will be increased in future (if indeed the flat-rate
>> > pricing model remains, which I think it will - it's very popular),
>>
>> yes, there are tech reasons for that, not only a popularity stuff.
>>
>> its the internet protocol way of doing things
>>
>> the promise of moving bytes arround the world without thinking about
>> times and distances
>>
>> the oposite of telephone system
>>
>>
>> > What the pricing model means really, in my view, is that the marginal
>> > costs to the ISP of supplying bandwidth are socialised among its
>> > customers. And customers are mostly happy with this because they do not
>> > want to continuously worry about how much they are using the internet
>> > and how much it is costing them, which was the case under the old
>> > pay-per-minute dialup model in the UK. I do not yet fully understand
>> > why broadband billing has developed differently from telephone billing
>> > in this regard,
>>
>> bingo! thats the central point of what I am saying here, and about
>> internet economics
>>
>> IP protocol is diferent, split time (packets) and not channels, so you
>> dont have limits, only time delay (to a certain amount)
>>
>> another model is EUA local calls (the only cost was manual operator,
>> so they charge per call, not time)
>>
>>
>> >> my machine is always on
>> >
>> > Your machine probably has the ability to save power by entering a
>> > lower-power state when it is effectively "doing nothing". Downloading
>> > isn't doing nothing because it needs a hard drive (usually). How much
>> > the additional electricity costs, I don't know, but I would be
>> > interested to find out.
>>
>> that proporcionality factor is really small.
>>
>> In fact my electrical bill have a lot off fixed costs, I dont care to
>> reduce consumption here. Thats crazy, I know. But that is my reality.
>> But if you have variable costs, the margina cost of transmission will
>> be very low when you put side by side with other costs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Diego Saravia
>> Diego.Saravia at gmail.com
>> NO FUNCIONA->dsa at unsa.edu.ar
>> _________________________________
>> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
>> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
>> Contact: projekt at oekonux.de
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>
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