[p2p-research] [ox-en] Marginalism - the religion

Wed Apr 22 09:48:46 CEST 2009

Patrick,

perhaps you can formalize your arguments for inclusion here,
http://p2pfoundation.net/Immaterial_Goods

as this is a recurrent discussion and argument,

Michel

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:04 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Patrick,
>
> Someone who is not scientifically oriented in their background (i.e. having
> some engineering, maths, physics, etc in their blood) will have a blind spot
> regarding the cost of things, no matter what you explain.
>
> Popular culture has implanted in people's minds the idea that stuff that
> resides on their computer or is transmitted electrically is "immaterial" or
> "virtual" and therefore has no cost.
>
> When it comes to bits and bytes, which, in an information economy, carry
> both the transactions for (and the information regarding) the goods and
> services as well as the digital goods and services themselves, some of the
> the physical constraints [that follow from the first and second laws of
> thermodynamics] are:
> 1. The continuous cost of energy for powering the Internet infrastructure
> at every point, including the the processing hardware and the communication
> channels. 2. The continuous cost of energy for maintaining and evolving
> the energy infrastructure for powering the Internet
> 3. The continuous cost of energy for maintaining and evolving the Internet
> at every point, including the processing and communication nodes,
> underground and undersea cables, wireless and satellite channels, data
> centers, etc. This includes the energy used in the development and
> manufacturing of new, improved hardware and software or the production of
> replacement parts for existing hardware and maintenance (bug fixing) of the
> software. 4. The continuous cost of energy for powering our human bioware,
> including our information processing capability (our brain) and our
> communication channels (our senses), which are necessary for the production
> and consumption of both physical as well as digital goods and services. 5.
> The continuous cost of energy for maintaining evolving our cognitive
> bioware, including our information processing capability (our brain) and our
> communication channels (our senses, which are necessary for the production
> and consumption of both physical as well as digital goods and services. Having
> stated these costs, I'm not saying that they cannot be socialized! In fact,
> socializing as much of these costs as possible may be a good idea (I have
> not thought about it enough) but I'm only backing up Patrick's point that
> the costs exist and they add up to a lot if you think of cost in holistic
> manner.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Diego Saravia <diego.saravia at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> 2009/4/21 Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>:
>> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Diego Saravia <diego.saravia at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "production" (duplication)
>> >
>> > There is far more to production than duplication.
>> >
>>
>> fixed costs
>>
>>
>>
>> > Living things such as a Strawberry plant can be thought of as pure
>> > design (DNA) that has been applied to the minerals and organic matter
>> > causing the plant to grow and reproduce (duplicate).
>>
>> organic matter is scarce, the same as pre internet info goods, they
>> are always related to a physical object
>>
>> you need paper to carry your book, more paper for more books
>>
>> you need live beings to carry DNA
>>
>> you can reproduce a lot of files without  any aditional cost
>>
>>
>> >> of info goods is only a copy of bytes, 0 marginal cost
>> >
>>
>> marginal is the key word
>>
>> > We cannot ignore the ecologic Costs of even 1 bit!
>>
>> I am not speaking about ecology
>>
>> > Are costs Marginal for moving 64k from one memory location to another?
>> >  Would a programmer agree with you?
>>
>> It cost nothing more to me  to move 64k from my machine to your machine
>> via mail
>> than not moving the bytes.
>>
>>
>> > Are TeraBytes across the globe Marginal?  What is BitTorrent?
>>
>> I do not pay anything more to use bittorrent than not using it, in
>> fact I could save money in music.
>>
>> >
>> > Is sharing copies locally cheaper?
>>
>> no
>>
>> >Are those savings always only Marginal?
>>
>> yes for me.
>>
>>
>> > In either case, do the copper wires cost nothing to mine, smelt,
>> > purify, cast/form, finish, cover, ship, store and sell?
>>
>> you already pay for it
>>
>>
>> > What about the electricity?  What about the noise?  What about the
>> > heat?  The pollution?
>>
>> my machine is always on
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> if you have internet
>> >
>> > That's no small if!
>>
>> yes, digital divide exits, two societies (perhaps more)
>>
>> I agree, is not a small if, is the fundamental fact about the info
>> societies
>>
>>
>>
>> > Who gets the internet for Free as in Beer?
>>
>> for me is not free, but I always pay the same.
>>
>> > This view of reality is so perplexing to me.
>>
>> I understand your point, but is not related to mine.
>>
>> > How can such barriers to entry be so ignored?
>>
>> I do not ignore them, I am speaking about  other stuff.
>>
>>
>> > Price matters!
>>
>> yes
>>
>> > And we are all being overcharged.
>>
>> could be, I dont know.
>>
>> >> the only scarcity is "artificial" , copyright law
>>
>> > But it is possible to use Copyright and maybe even Patents in our favor.
>>
>> yes, by a hack.
>>
>> > Without Copyright there could be no Copyleft, and without Copyleft,
>>
>> we would  not need copyleft if we do not have copyright
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > When users (consumers) have "at cost" access to the sources of
>> > production (both informational and physical), then competition is
>> > maximized because every potential worker can vie for that job without
>> > external 'owners' getting in the way - for in this case the user and
>> > owner are the same.
>>
>> yes
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> so info goods are not economic goods
>> >
>> > This is what I don't understand.
>>
>>
>> economics goods
>>
>> useless definition  (for my perspective)
>> Definition of Economic Goods: An economic good is a physical object or
>> service that has value to people and can be sold for a non-negative
>> price in the marketplace.
>> http://economics.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-economic-good.htm
>>
>>
>> more enlighted definition (in my terms)
>>
>> http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/economic-goods.html
>> Consumable item that is useful to people but scarce in relation to its
>> demand, so that human effort is required to obtain it. In contrast,
>> free goods (such as air) are naturally in abundant supply and need no
>> conscious effort to obtain them.
>> ---
>> off course these is true for info goods marginally
>>
>> you are in or not.
>>
>> > What about the owners of the physical sources needed to *host* those
>> > informational goods?
>>
>> fixed costs
>>
>> > Are the cost of creating and maintaining Google's server-farms marginal?
>>
>> yes, for me
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Diego Saravia
>> Diego.Saravia at gmail.com
>> NO FUNCIONA->dsa at unsa.edu.ar
>> _________________________________
>> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
>> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
>> Contact: projekt at oekonux.de
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>
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