[p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Tue Apr 21 04:20:47 CEST 2009
excellent idea Andreas, perhaps we can create a subgroup specifically
dedicated to the future of institutional learning in a p2p suffused
environment
Ryan, I quoted your contribution for a blog excerpt on the 27th,
I think comparing uni's to ford is not the best
universties exist at least since the first medieval renaissance in europe,
and before we had greek academies and in the east, ashrams,
in other words: dedicated places for full-time learning and practice.
I think such places will always be necessary, though not necessarily in the
current institutional setting and neoliberal climate,
a lot will need to be changed before mainstream society starts trusting
un-credentialed p2p learning though, so I'm not betting any chips on the
uni's disappearing 'rapidly'
Michel
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Wittel, Andreas
<andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk>wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
>
> thanks for sharing your ideas about p2p unis, Ryan. Interesting stuff. I
> don't have any suggestions, just hundreds of questions about knowledge
> production (research) and knowledge distribution (teaching). It seems that
> this is an issue worth thinking about a bit longer, perhaps in the p2p
> research group?
> Andreas
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ryan Lanham [mailto:rlanham1963 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 19:31
> To: Wittel, Andreas
> Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en at oekonux.org; p2pf at yahoogroups.com;
> Peer-To-Peer Research List
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
>
>
> Hi Andreas,
>
> I think your answer was right on the money with regard to what I was
> getting at...universities are unlikely to succeed by being more
> "business-like" because that is not their mission.
>
> Efficiency is a reasonable objective, but is it achieved by being more
> business-like? I doubt it...unless your mission is to do the things
> businesses do--make profits, take market share, satisfy "customers." A
> student isn't a customer--just ask any teacher, and if education is a
> product, so then is a degree. Things earned are not sold to the earner.
> This is far more than a game of semantics; it speaks to organizational
> aptness for a given mission.
>
> Universities drive themselves to extinction by becoming businesses. They
> are increasingly irrelevant that way with products and strategies that
> corrode and disintegrate. By being more p2p, they could slip away from
> institutional rot, and become far more conceptual...and more powerful.
>
> I do disagree whether p2p is going to wither away capitalism; I think it
> might. Here's why. Capitalism requires a debt-based economy--that was
> Keynes' insight really--the difference between how he saw the creation of
> money versus the classical economists. To achieve a debt economy, you need
> investments in capital that can support future cash flows. Now in the case
> of p2p, I think such investments are far fewer and declining. It is fairly
> easy to fragment industrial production into the world Kevin describes in
> some of his writings...
>
> Most p2p firms--an intermediate animal in my view--exist by leveraging
> investment in knowledge creation--what you say is a plausible mission of
> universities. Google, for instance, or Craig's List or Ebay...all p2p to
> one extent or another. Facilitating p2p is not a likely long-term facility
> for garnering cash flows because efficiencies of knowledge arise. That is
> why Microsoft is starting to die...they didn't anticipate cloud computing
> and more p2p models like the evolution of Linux.
>
> Institutions were efficient by enabling norms (like how to write a
> dissertation) or by exercising bureaucracies. Neither of those is very
> efficient in a p2p world. So the same sort of institutional melt so many of
> us (Michel and Kevin notably, but also panarchists, knowledge management
> gurus and e-learning folks who dominate the blogosphere of knowledge work)
>
> Universities have a choice. They can become more p2p--and some are--or
> they can die like the institutional dinosaurs they have become.
>
> What would a p2p university look like? It would have open degree
> validation (like Wales) or some of the Open/Free Universities, it would
> implement peer-reviewed degrees for research, it would commit to use and
> produce open ideas that are not bound in paid journals or behind
> high-tuition walls. It would dissolve its barriers to entry and to
> scholarship--working instead to facilitate fellows and associates more than
> tenured faculty. It would cast a cold eye on formalism in scholarship in
> general, and in identity-building scholarship in particular. Public access,
> service learning, learner-centered models and use of social media would far
> outstrip classrooms, halls, buildings and walls--both physical and mental.
> It would have research in distant lands and partnerships with facilities
> around the world interlinked by electronic nets. It would grant status and
> prestige to a Clay Shirky, Harold Jarche or many similar net-based scholars
> as quickly as it would to a nose-to-the-grindstone assistant professor who
> publishes some trash in the Journal of Mumble Mumble and gets an editorship
> on the equally esoteric (and closed) Journal of TweedleDee. Harsh, but the
> reality is, most of us have stopped listening...and being heard is the p2p
> currency...as it is the currency of all thinking.
>
> I believe even in science the tinkerers and DiY guys are coming on
> strong--in bioinformatics, genetics, robotics, transhumanism. Soon perhaps
> they will be there in medicine and physics. Long ago the best social
> science moved out of the academy.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Wittel, Andreas <andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ryan,
>
> not sure if I understand your question. If you do think that
> universities should not be businesses (as I do) why think about examples in
> history that show a successful transformation from non-business to business
> models? Are you indicating with your question that this change of unis to
> corporations will ultimately fail?
>
> The primary function of universities in one sentence? Perhaps to
> contribute to the production and dissemination of knowledge? Obviously there
> are other players emerging doing the same thing, collective intelligence
> etc. So there is competition, whcih has to be a good thing.
>
> I really dont think that p2p will wash away capitalism and all
> institutions associated with it. I'd rather think of this in terms of
> mergers. Any idea what universities would look like if they would go p2p
> instead of business?
>
>
> Andreas
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ryan Lanham [mailto:rlanham1963 at gmail.com]
>
> Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 03:00
>
> To: Wittel, Andreas
> Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en at oekonux.org; p2pf at yahoogroups.com;
> Peer-To-Peer Research List
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
>
>
> Hi Andreas,
>
> Here's a question...a sincere one, not a rhetorical one: Is there
> any institution that has, in history, internally reformed satisfactorily by
> adopting a business model when no such model existed from the outset? I
> think of New Public Management in government/public affairs as a minimally
> successful (and still highly controversial) model. I'm sure there are
> numerous others.
>
> Universities, like governments, are not businesses. Businesses
> exist to optimize their own survival and to control percentages of
> ecological carrying capacities that enrich managers and shareholders.
> Governments exist to achieve stable advancement and protection of normative
> social values. Universities exist to....???
>
> One can add many predicates. What is disturbing is that one cannot
> think of a defining predicate...particularly one that doesn't entail
> prestige and identity enhancement...thinks seemingly at odds with sharing
> usable assets optimally.
>
> I contend p2p exists to simplify and optimize distribution of
> resources...it replaces capitalism, institutions, socialism and several
> other approaches that aimed to deal with distribution of resources. p2p is
> a form of economics that makes the money component of value subordinate to
> efficient distribution with, through, or in spite of money. Its ethos is
> sharing usable assets without creating persons or entities unwilling to
> share usable assets. It does this by minimizing overheads associated with
> the delivery of sharing.
>
> Universities were p2p 1.0. Time to envision 2.0. No need for the
> institutional components.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Basically I agree with this critique but would offer a twist.
> The university as secret society model is rapidly vanishing and making space
> for the university as business model. Where university knowledge formerly
> has been hidden away, it is now opening up to all kinds of so called
> effiencies such as auditing, quality control, usability, just in time
> delivery, customer service and so on. Not sure what is worse.
> Andreas
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ryan Lanham [mailto:rlanham1963 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sun 19/04/2009 03:17
> To: Wittel, Andreas
> Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en at oekonux.org;
> p2pf at yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer Research List
>
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research
> Group
>
>
> It seems to me that there are at least two ways institutions
> can be judged successful: First, they can be viewed as survivors in an
> ecology. To succeed, they need only continue. The second way to success is
> in serving some purpose well.
>
> Monolithic knowledge has few supporters these days. So if
> one opts for the second and more human purpose, there needs to be a mission
> beyond "veritas". Teaching does not seem to be the mission of most
> institutions; it is a byproduct. Few who study teaching find universities
> to be particularly good at it, and teaching is rarely studied as a pursuit
> in universities outside of the discipline of education. Boosting people
> into competencies is a plausible mission, but even there, universities are
> hardly efficient or effective.
>
> I think universities had two symbiotic purposes--one to imbue
> students with associative identity and institutional prestige--with a
> byproduct of some learning, and the second, more elemental mission was to
> earn that prestige through "scholarship."
>
> So the real question of the worth or failure of universities
> comes back, it seems to me, to the meaning of scholarship. P2P modes exist
> (spontaneously?) for efficiencies of minimalizing institutional
> burdens--bureaucracy, identity, prestige, norms, hierachies, etc.
>
> My condemnation of universities is in finding their
> definitions of scholarship to be (too often) solipsistic, removed from
> relevance and, more generally, exclusive. They failed by hiding their
> product from transparency. Instead, they chose to form guilds and to
> perfect trade secrets, normative rituals, and to act more like secret
> societies than service entities.
>
> Regardless, knowledge is useful and universities contribute
> almost in spite of themselves. Learned individuals do the right
> things--perhaps as Athina is doing--just because they embody the very
> desires for meaning, value and efficiency that are at the heart of the p2p
> ethos. In a sense, p2p success at universities requires fighting the
> conventional institutional overhead
>
> When the two blend, the academy washes out the authenticity
> of p2p through institutional machinery that simply can't be abandoned by
> most. People need the church acoutrements that Marc suggests exist. p2p is
> thus potentially lost in the very mechanics it innocently undermines. Like
> water against a shore, it will bounce back and meld in because its
> dissolving power is very microscopic--at the level of the person...it is not
> aggregated to the perspective of people who view the world from
> institutional eyes...as land and sea. But sometimes there are storms and
> rapid shifts, to extend a metaphor way too far!
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> This is a interesting question.
>
> As I have hosted the workshop in Nottingham, I 'd like
> to share my experience with Nottingham Trend Uni. I asked the IT people to
> set up a wiki and was told that this is not possible as NTU wanted control
> over content. Obviously the result was a dead web site, suitable for
> information around the time of the conference, and dead later.
>
> I would suspect that most unis have this policy.
> Should Hull be more open, and open to a wiki, and willing to fund the site,
> then I would welcome this and take advantage of it. However if Hull has (1)
> similar concerns about wikis as NTU, and (2) does not fund a non-Hull
> website for the research group, I would follow Ryan's suggestion to set up
> the p2p research group without uni affiliation.
>
> Basically we dont need uni support to set up a
> research group. But we do need uni support (in terms of funding) to meet for
> conferences and workshops.
>
> One more thing. Ryan said ealier.
>
>
> On the other hand, lists of "researchers" meaning
> people at academic institutions who write papers for journals seems a failed
> model
>
>
> As much as my academic heart agrees with this due to
> all kinds of frustrations in this world, I find this a dangerous statement
> as it puts universities in the realm of history. Are you really suggesting
> we dont need unis any more? How about newspapers? Art? Literature? Sould all
> this (which is under serious threat atm) be allowed to be swept away for
> non-insitituational knowledge work to succeed?
>
> For those interested in the relevance of history in
> the information age I'd recommend Alan Liu (2004), The Laws of Cool.
>
> Andreas
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org on behalf
> of Ryan Lanham
> Sent: Sat 18/04/2009 20:23
> To: Athina Karatzogianni
> Cc: list-en at oekonux.org; p2pf at yahoogroups.com;
> Peer-To-Peer Research List
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P
> Research Group
>
>
>
> Thanks, Athina. I will do what you say.
>
> I should note, in the interest of open disclosure,
> that I have been an employee of Harvard, Northwestern and Virginia Tech
> universities. It would be disingenuous for me to ride too a horse about
> higher ed.
>
>
>
>
> There is a new effort going on now concerning a
> charter for best practices in community engagement that may serve as a
> suitable base; I will post a link in the next couple of days since I am not
> as good as Michel at building stockpiles on de.licio.us <
> http://de.licio.us/> <http://de.licio.us/> <http://de.licio.us/> <
> http://de.licio.us/> .
>
>
>
>
> Anyone else who wishes to offer a collaborative
> foundation, method, or tools besides a wiki should gather their thoughts and
> speak out as time goes forward.
>
> I continue to applaud and welcome the general concept
> and can imagine the risks and frustrations associated with moving forward.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Athina Karatzogianni
> <athina.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ryan
>
> I am all for what you propose, please take the
> initiative.
>
> I would also like to add here if I may, in
> response one of your previous emails, the fact that i happen to be an
> academic and hull is interested in supporting this effort (i have kept
> chasing them around for the past 2 years!) is somehow causing political
> concern in terms of excluding non academics and other more serious
> ideological issues, which I recognize as valid.
>
> Nevertheless, it feels a constant barrier
> having to defend any sort of effort of volunteering my time. Those that know
> me personally and my work more generally will know were my political
> loyalties have been and will continue to be. They are not with institutions
> and certainly not with hierarchies.
>
> Please take the lead in this, and whoever else
> wants to take initiatives they are here to be taken. I am not excluding
> anyone and neither does what happens to be my current affiliation. In a way
> I am trying to say that this is a research group for p2p researchers, how
> can it have different logic and how it can exclude anyone? I have taken it
> for granted that it has a peer logic. Doing charters and discussing
> governance perhaps someone like you can the the lead in. All I trying to do
> is set up, host everyone for a first time in hull to discuss all these
> issues and create some sort of governance structure for the group when we
> meet face to face and get some funding going.
>
> Cheers
>
> Athina
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ryan Lanham <
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Michel,
>
> Thanks. A constitution isn't a bad
> idea, but rather than one drafter, I'll look for a starting point that is
> more collaborative and perhaps an open section of the wiki could be used to
> gather broad inpur. I'd be happy to shepherd and encourage that process.
>
> Perhaps others with interests in open
> and collaborative governance could take significant roles in editing.
>
>
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Michel
> Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ryan,
>
> I don't think any social or
> political change project can bypass altogether all institutions, it needs to
> work both within and without. This being said, while aiming for funding
> obviously demands playing by some rules, I think that for all participants
> who believe in the P2P ethos, no research project can or should be exclusive
> to academic researchers. In my view, the new group should also be able to
> assist non-academic researchers.
>
> Perhaps, we could write a
> manifesto of sorts, that would serve as the 'constitution' of the group,
> which would specific this,
>
> Would you be interested in
> taking the lead in writing this?
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:37
> AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I applaud this
> initiative and bravo to those offering the funding. On the other hand,
> lists of "researchers" meaning people at academic institutions who write
> papers for journals seems a failed model that is less in need of
> reinforcement than rejection.
>
> Research in an academic
> sense is not p2p, hasn't been, and never will be. I would not exclude it, I
> just would feed it by giving it additional free assets of prestige and focus
> without their earning those resources in open (truly open) communities.
>
> Ryan Lanham
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at
> 5:09 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I´m extremely
> happy to announce this initiative, which will enable people interested in
> p2p dynamics to more easily appeal for research funding.
>
> B elow is a
> short announcement from Athina Karatzogianni, please ask for the document
> that she is referring to in her email listed below. If you are involved with
> research, academic or not, please let us know and do forward this message to
> other networks.
>
> If you have no
> access to the attached document, please request one from Athina via email
>
>
>
> Michel Bauwens
>
>
>
>
> Text:
>
>
> "The P2P
> Foundation <http://p2pfoundation.net/> in collaboration with the
> University of Hull <http://www.hull.ac.uk/> are creating a P2PResearch
> Group (P2PRG) with a physical base in Hull, in order to initiate a material
> equivalent to the various virtual networks we are all part of. Some of the
> goals of the group are to attract funding to improve already existent
> infrastructures, create more material and immaterial networks and hubs and
> capture funding for research, conferences and workshops. A conference
> scheduled for November will also produce a direct and transparent steering
> committee to oversee the various activities of the group. Therefore, it
> would be particularly helpful, if everyone, who is interested in
> participating, fills as much information as they can, in the document
> attached, and email it to Athina <
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/>
> at athina.k at gmail.com"
>
>
> see and forward
> doc attached (please edit doc michel as you see fit)
>
> athina
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Athina
> Karatzogianni
> Lecturer in
> Media, Culture and Society
> The Dean's
> Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
> Faculty of Arts
> and Social Sciences
> The University
> of Hull
> United Kingdom
> HU6 7RX
> T: ++44 (0)
> 1482 46 5790
> F: ++44 (0)
> 1482 466107
>
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Athina
> Karatzogianni
> Lecturer in
> Media, Culture and Society
> The Dean's
> Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
> Faculty of Arts
> and Social Sciences
> The University
> of Hull
> United Kingdom
> HU6 7RX
> T: ++44 (0)
> 1482 46 5790
> F: ++44 (0)
> 1482 466107
>
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Working at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at
> the P2P Foundation:
>
>
>
>
> http://p2pfoundation.net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> <
> http://p2pfoundation.net/> <http://p2pfoundation.net/> <
> http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>
>
>
>
>
> Monitor updates
> at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the
> P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN, http://www.shiftn.com/
>
>
>
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http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
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