[p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Mon Apr 20 16:18:35 CEST 2009
Hi Sam,
I really don't know how realistic your expectation is. How many uni's, with
their current culture and admin hierarchy, would survive such a transition?
Why not defend public universities and their funding, but also fight for
self-management? Within such a context, certain aspects of university life
could try out the commons route.
But outside of it, I fear it would be use much as the sustainability
concept, as an empty slogan used politically to enclose public education,
Michel
On 4/20/09, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One of the problems here in the US is that public funding has largely dried
> up for Universities, and so most of them have turned to larger corporations
> for money. Related to this, some of them have also turned to being in the
> "business" of securing grants (and often not doing much with the grants
> other than absorbing them, and pressuring PI's to seek more grants instead
> of allowing grantees to work to make those that grantees have already
> received achieve their stated goals).
>
> In the US, Universities are top-heavy when it comes to maximizing money.
> They became very used to public subsidies, and grants, and created a rather
> insatiable appetite for money. So, once that money stream has dried up, many
> of them turned to restructuring themselves as businesses in order to just
> sustain programs, building projects, etc. Perhaps it is the same in EU and
> UK? I don't have direct experience, and so do not know for sure.
>
> I think that given the larger environment, that it will be practically
> impossible for many Universities in the US to avoid restructuring themselves
> as businesses.
>
> So, the question them becomes: what *kind* of "business" should a
> University be?
>
> There is a legitimate business model, that I call a "commons-based"
> business model. This model is probably the best fit for Universities. Give
> it away, making money. Steve Bosserman writes about it here:
>
>
> http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/steve_bosserman/2008/02/09/giving_it_away_making_money.htm
>
> I agree with Andreas that Universities should stay away from more
> traditional business. Stay away from making their staff and students
> available as low cost research outsource grunts. Basically, stay away from
> seeing people and land as natural resources and labor to be capitalized
> upon.
>
> The cost of restructuring to take commons based business route is far less
> than than the cost of scarcity based business , and commons based businesses
> run with principles discussed by Elinor Ostrum in Governing the Commons
> (design principles discussion) will outperform and outsustain scarcity based
> businesses.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Wittel, Andreas <andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> not sure if I understand your question. If you do think that universities
>> should not be businesses (as I do) why think about examples in history that
>> show a successful transformation from non-business to business models? Are
>> you indicating with your question that this change of unis to corporations
>> will ultimately fail?
>>
>> The primary function of universities in one sentence? Perhaps to
>> contribute to the production and dissemination of knowledge? Obviously there
>> are other players emerging doing the same thing, collective intelligence
>> etc. So there is competition, whcih has to be a good thing.
>>
>> I really dont think that p2p will wash away capitalism and all
>> institutions associated with it. I'd rather think of this in terms of
>> mergers. Any idea what universities would look like if they would go p2p
>> instead of business?
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Ryan Lanham [mailto:rlanham1963 at gmail.com]
>>
>> Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 03:00
>> To: Wittel, Andreas
>> Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en at oekonux.org; p2pf at yahoogroups.com;
>> Peer-To-Peer Research List
>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
>>
>>
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> Here's a question...a sincere one, not a rhetorical one: Is there any
>> institution that has, in history, internally reformed satisfactorily by
>> adopting a business model when no such model existed from the outset? I
>> think of New Public Management in government/public affairs as a minimally
>> successful (and still highly controversial) model. I'm sure there are
>> numerous others.
>>
>> Universities, like governments, are not businesses. Businesses exist to
>> optimize their own survival and to control percentages of ecological
>> carrying capacities that enrich managers and shareholders. Governments
>> exist to achieve stable advancement and protection of normative social
>> values. Universities exist to....???
>>
>> One can add many predicates. What is disturbing is that one cannot think
>> of a defining predicate...particularly one that doesn't entail prestige and
>> identity enhancement...thinks seemingly at odds with sharing usable assets
>> optimally.
>>
>> I contend p2p exists to simplify and optimize distribution of
>> resources...it replaces capitalism, institutions, socialism and several
>> other approaches that aimed to deal with distribution of resources. p2p is
>> a form of economics that makes the money component of value subordinate to
>> efficient distribution with, through, or in spite of money. Its ethos is
>> sharing usable assets without creating persons or entities unwilling to
>> share usable assets. It does this by minimizing overheads associated with
>> the delivery of sharing.
>>
>> Universities were p2p 1.0. Time to envision 2.0. No need for the
>> institutional components.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
>> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Basically I agree with this critique but would offer a twist. The
>> university as secret society model is rapidly vanishing and making space for
>> the university as business model. Where university knowledge formerly has
>> been hidden away, it is now opening up to all kinds of so called effiencies
>> such as auditing, quality control, usability, just in time delivery,
>> customer service and so on. Not sure what is worse.
>> Andreas
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Ryan Lanham [mailto:rlanham1963 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sun 19/04/2009 03:17
>> To: Wittel, Andreas
>> Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en at oekonux.org;
>> p2pf at yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer Research List
>>
>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that there are at least two ways institutions can be
>> judged successful: First, they can be viewed as survivors in an ecology.
>> To succeed, they need only continue. The second way to success is in
>> serving some purpose well.
>>
>> Monolithic knowledge has few supporters these days. So if one opts
>> for the second and more human purpose, there needs to be a mission beyond
>> "veritas". Teaching does not seem to be the mission of most institutions;
>> it is a byproduct. Few who study teaching find universities to be
>> particularly good at it, and teaching is rarely studied as a pursuit in
>> universities outside of the discipline of education. Boosting people into
>> competencies is a plausible mission, but even there, universities are hardly
>> efficient or effective.
>>
>> I think universities had two symbiotic purposes--one to imbue
>> students with associative identity and institutional prestige--with a
>> byproduct of some learning, and the second, more elemental mission was to
>> earn that prestige through "scholarship."
>>
>> So the real question of the worth or failure of universities comes
>> back, it seems to me, to the meaning of scholarship. P2P modes exist
>> (spontaneously?) for efficiencies of minimalizing institutional
>> burdens--bureaucracy, identity, prestige, norms, hierachies, etc.
>>
>> My condemnation of universities is in finding their definitions of
>> scholarship to be (too often) solipsistic, removed from relevance and, more
>> generally, exclusive. They failed by hiding their product from
>> transparency. Instead, they chose to form guilds and to perfect trade
>> secrets, normative rituals, and to act more like secret societies than
>> service entities.
>>
>> Regardless, knowledge is useful and universities contribute almost
>> in spite of themselves. Learned individuals do the right things--perhaps as
>> Athina is doing--just because they embody the very desires for meaning,
>> value and efficiency that are at the heart of the p2p ethos. In a sense,
>> p2p success at universities requires fighting the conventional institutional
>> overhead
>>
>> When the two blend, the academy washes out the authenticity of p2p
>> through institutional machinery that simply can't be abandoned by most.
>> People need the church acoutrements that Marc suggests exist. p2p is thus
>> potentially lost in the very mechanics it innocently undermines. Like water
>> against a shore, it will bounce back and meld in because its dissolving
>> power is very microscopic--at the level of the person...it is not aggregated
>> to the perspective of people who view the world from institutional eyes...as
>> land and sea. But sometimes there are storms and rapid shifts, to extend a
>> metaphor way too far!
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
>> andreas.wittel at ntu.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> This is a interesting question.
>>
>> As I have hosted the workshop in Nottingham, I 'd like to
>> share my experience with Nottingham Trend Uni. I asked the IT people to set
>> up a wiki and was told that this is not possible as NTU wanted control over
>> content. Obviously the result was a dead web site, suitable for information
>> around the time of the conference, and dead later.
>>
>> I would suspect that most unis have this policy. Should Hull
>> be more open, and open to a wiki, and willing to fund the site, then I would
>> welcome this and take advantage of it. However if Hull has (1) similar
>> concerns about wikis as NTU, and (2) does not fund a non-Hull website for
>> the research group, I would follow Ryan's suggestion to set up the p2p
>> research group without uni affiliation.
>>
>> Basically we dont need uni support to set up a research
>> group. But we do need uni support (in terms of funding) to meet for
>> conferences and workshops.
>>
>> One more thing. Ryan said ealier.
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, lists of "researchers" meaning people at
>> academic institutions who write papers for journals seems a failed model
>>
>>
>> As much as my academic heart agrees with this due to all
>> kinds of frustrations in this world, I find this a dangerous statement as it
>> puts universities in the realm of history. Are you really suggesting we dont
>> need unis any more? How about newspapers? Art? Literature? Sould all this
>> (which is under serious threat atm) be allowed to be swept away for
>> non-insitituational knowledge work to succeed?
>>
>> For those interested in the relevance of history in the
>> information age I'd recommend Alan Liu (2004), The Laws of Cool.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: p2presearch-bounces at listcultures.org on behalf of
>> Ryan Lanham
>> Sent: Sat 18/04/2009 20:23
>> To: Athina Karatzogianni
>> Cc: list-en at oekonux.org; p2pf at yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer
>> Research List
>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research
>> Group
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Athina. I will do what you say.
>>
>> I should note, in the interest of open disclosure, that I
>> have been an employee of Harvard, Northwestern and Virginia Tech
>> universities. It would be disingenuous for me to ride too a horse about
>> higher ed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a new effort going on now concerning a charter for
>> best practices in community engagement that may serve as a suitable base; I
>> will post a link in the next couple of days since I am not as good as Michel
>> at building stockpiles on de.licio.us <http://de.licio.us/> <
>> http://de.licio.us/> <http://de.licio.us/> .
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone else who wishes to offer a collaborative foundation,
>> method, or tools besides a wiki should gather their thoughts and speak out
>> as time goes forward.
>>
>> I continue to applaud and welcome the general concept and
>> can imagine the risks and frustrations associated with moving forward.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Athina Karatzogianni <
>> athina.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Ryan
>>
>> I am all for what you propose, please take the
>> initiative.
>>
>> I would also like to add here if I may, in response
>> one of your previous emails, the fact that i happen to be an academic and
>> hull is interested in supporting this effort (i have kept chasing them
>> around for the past 2 years!) is somehow causing political concern in terms
>> of excluding non academics and other more serious ideological issues, which
>> I recognize as valid.
>>
>> Nevertheless, it feels a constant barrier having to
>> defend any sort of effort of volunteering my time. Those that know me
>> personally and my work more generally will know were my political loyalties
>> have been and will continue to be. They are not with institutions and
>> certainly not with hierarchies.
>>
>> Please take the lead in this, and whoever else wants
>> to take initiatives they are here to be taken. I am not excluding anyone and
>> neither does what happens to be my current affiliation. In a way I am trying
>> to say that this is a research group for p2p researchers, how can it have
>> different logic and how it can exclude anyone? I have taken it for granted
>> that it has a peer logic. Doing charters and discussing governance perhaps
>> someone like you can the the lead in. All I trying to do is set up, host
>> everyone for a first time in hull to discuss all these issues and create
>> some sort of governance structure for the group when we meet face to face
>> and get some funding going.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Athina
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ryan Lanham <
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Michel,
>>
>> Thanks. A constitution isn't a bad idea, but
>> rather than one drafter, I'll look for a starting point that is more
>> collaborative and perhaps an open section of the wiki could be used to
>> gather broad inpur. I'd be happy to shepherd and encourage that process.
>>
>> Perhaps others with interests in open and
>> collaborative governance could take significant roles in editing.
>>
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>
>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Michel
>> Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> I don't think any social or political
>> change project can bypass altogether all institutions, it needs to work both
>> within and without. This being said, while aiming for funding obviously
>> demands playing by some rules, I think that for all participants who believe
>> in the P2P ethos, no research project can or should be exclusive to academic
>> researchers. In my view, the new group should also be able to assist
>> non-academic researchers.
>>
>> Perhaps, we could write a manifesto
>> of sorts, that would serve as the 'constitution' of the group, which would
>> specific this,
>>
>> Would you be interested in taking the
>> lead in writing this?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:37 AM, Ryan
>> Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I applaud this initiative and
>> bravo to those offering the funding. On the other hand, lists of
>> "researchers" meaning people at academic institutions who write papers for
>> journals seems a failed model that is less in need of reinforcement than
>> rejection.
>>
>> Research in an academic sense
>> is not p2p, hasn't been, and never will be. I would not exclude it, I just
>> would feed it by giving it additional free assets of prestige and focus
>> without their earning those resources in open (truly open) communities.
>>
>> Ryan Lanham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:09
>> AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I´m extremely happy
>> to announce this initiative, which will enable people interested in p2p
>> dynamics to more easily appeal for research funding.
>>
>> B elow is a short
>> announcement from Athina Karatzogianni, please ask for the document that she
>> is referring to in her email listed below. If you are involved with
>> research, academic or not, please let us know and do forward this message to
>> other networks.
>>
>> If you have no access
>> to the attached document, please request one from Athina via email
>>
>>
>>
>> Michel Bauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Text:
>>
>>
>> "The P2P Foundation <
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/> in collaboration with the University of Hull
>> <http://www.hull.ac.uk/> are creating a P2PResearch Group (P2PRG) with a
>> physical base in Hull, in order to initiate a material equivalent to the
>> various virtual networks we are all part of. Some of the goals of the group
>> are to attract funding to improve already existent infrastructures, create
>> more material and immaterial networks and hubs and capture funding for
>> research, conferences and workshops. A conference scheduled for November
>> will also produce a direct and transparent steering committee to oversee the
>> various activities of the group. Therefore, it would be particularly
>> helpful, if everyone, who is interested in participating, fills as much
>> information as they can, in the document attached, and email it to Athina <
>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/>
>> at athina.k at gmail.com"
>>
>>
>> see and forward doc
>> attached (please edit doc michel as you see fit)
>>
>> athina
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Athina
>> Karatzogianni
>> Lecturer in Media,
>> Culture and Society
>> The Dean's
>> Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
>> Faculty of Arts and
>> Social Sciences
>> The University of
>> Hull
>> United Kingdom
>> HU6 7RX
>> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46
>> 5790
>> F: ++44 (0) 1482
>> 466107
>>
>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Athina
>> Karatzogianni
>> Lecturer in Media,
>> Culture and Society
>> The Dean's
>> Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
>> Faculty of Arts and
>> Social Sciences
>> The University of
>> Hull
>> United Kingdom
>> HU6 7RX
>> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46
>> 5790
>> F: ++44 (0) 1482
>> 466107
>>
>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the
>> P2P Foundation:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://p2pfoundation.net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> <
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/> <http://p2pfoundation.net/> -
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> Monitor updates at
>> http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P
>> Foundation is supported by SHIFTN, http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> __._,_.___
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>> http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJwcWs1Y2FpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTUxOTM0NTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNuY21vZARzbGsDdG9vbGJhcgRzdGltZQMxMjQwMDA3ODU5;_ylg=1/SIG=11c6dvmk9/**http%3A//toolbar.yahoo.com/%3F.cpdl=ygrps
>> >
>>
>>
>> easy 1-click access
>>
>> to your groups.
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups
>>
>>
>> Start a group <
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/start;_ylc=X3oDMTJwazUxMnVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTUxOTM0NTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNuY21vZARzbGsDZ3JvdXBzMgRzdGltZQMxMjQwMDA3ODU5
>> >
>>
>>
>> in 3 easy steps.
>>
>> Connect with others.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> __,_._,___
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://p2pfoundation.net <
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/> <http://p2pfoundation.net/> <
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> <
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/> - http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/> <
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> Monitor updates at
>> http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is
>> supported by SHIFTN, http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Athina Karatzogianni
>> Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
>> The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
>> Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
>> The University of Hull
>> United Kingdom
>> HU6 7RX
>> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
>> F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
>>
>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
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> http://communitywiki.org
>
>
>
>
> "Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
> Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."
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--
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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