[p2p-research] [p2p energy economy] Fwd: Follow up

Fri Apr 17 12:57:33 CEST 2009

The music changed and many ideologies are trying to prove they are
still in the groove, so to speak, but its clear that the old dance is
dead.

There is no 1-2-3 instruction fo Poen peer production, at least not a
Powerpoint or rap song or any kind pf popular, memorable theme.

However seeing how far it has come is in itself evidence as to the
appeal of the core message.

So way to go, and hopefully more to come.

On 4/17/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Things are happening,
>
> just a few things from my perspective,
>
> - got word that at least half a dozen phd researchers in a helsinki
> university were 'strongly influenced' by the p2p work, and also a local
> group in Arkansas, 'where the p2p work is mentioned almost daily'
>
> - also, got requests from romania, hungary in the last week, for essay
> contributions
>
> this is just a small sample,
>
> what I would like to see is people connecting globally, under the umbrella
> of the p2p foundation, to meet up etc...
>
> utlimately, I think more explicitely political circles would be called for,
> but like the P2P Research Group, with a independent to linked identity,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:12 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just want to say that I have a huge respect for Ryan and all his
>> input to this collective realization. Same for everyone here.
>>
>> I am having my own archetypal struggle ATM as far as ideologies and
>> behaviors go, but this group really has a great effect on my thinking,
>> so please don't take my challenges as obstruction but rather as
>> stemming from my need to harvest the collective psyche :)
>>
>> Its never easy being on the fringe. Feels like bumper cars. Like we
>> should be able to put our thoughts tohbether in a more collective way.
>>
>> I'll leave it to Michel to make those connections.
>>
>> We can make a difference. I've seen it happen.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>> On 4/16/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Ryan,
>> >
>> > I find your contribution very interesting, because it touches the key
>> > problem of the interoperability and exchangeability of multiple
>> currencies
>> > which may have little in common.
>> >
>> > As it is under-discussed, I would really appreciate if you could
>> > address
>> > this issue for our blog, by expanding a little on your contribution
>> > here,
>> > with an extra context for lay people so they understand its importance?
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Marc:
>> >>
>> >> This may seem a bit governmental, but I'd argue the key to your system
>> is
>> >> the policy objective a given currency wishes to optimize--set through
>> some
>> >> collaborative governance mechanism or by a representative group (e.g.
>> >> a
>> >> chamber of commerce or a community foundation).
>> >>
>> >> Use arbitrage between currencies allow different "pots" of money to
>> >> reallocate.  In a prison, cigarettes might be used to buy services,
>> >> and
>> >> cans
>> >> of mackeral used to buy goods, but you can have a market between mack
>> and
>> >> cigs.
>> >>
>> >> In other words, think of a rainbow of color currencies.  Orange is for
>> >> this, blue is for that.  If you want blue to optimize efficient
>> production
>> >> of non-carbon energy, price it in energy units accordingly.  Let
>> >> market
>> >> mechanisms reallocate with possible REGULATORY governance actions that
>> can
>> >> intervene to change supply/demand in arbitrage options.
>> >>
>> >> There is a tendency for people to dislike markets because of some of
>> their
>> >> failings.  That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  The key
>> >> to
>> a
>> >> polyarchic currency system, I believe, is to allow rapid creation of
>> >> policy
>> >> objectives (new colors) combined with rapid introduction of
>> >> market-based
>> >> arbitrage between colors.  Use limited numbers of price-settings in
>> >> auctions
>> >> to reduce speculative games.  In other words, the rate set between
>> orange
>> >> and blue may only be set twice a day, etc.
>> >>
>> >> Who sets?  The high bidder, up to some limit...then the next highest
>> >> bidder, and so forth.
>> >>
>> >> The key is allowance of persistent coupon systems matching policy aims
>> >> (like a bond market really, but more liquid and fungible).  In current
>> >> worlds, that aim (the policy objective of a currency) is the growth of
>> >> a
>> >> given currency economy or allowance of government actions that can use
>> >> currency devaluation to achieve some governmental policy objective
>> >> (e.g.
>> >> short term consumption against long-term pain.)
>> >>
>> >> Ryan Lanham
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:24 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Just sharing some notes on the current problems in the P2P Energy
>> Economy
>> >>> model
>> >>>
>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >>> From: marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>> >>> Date: Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:23 PM
>> >>> Subject: Follow up
>> >>> To: James Edwards <bluecollargreenie at gmail.com>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi James,
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm sorry to have dropped the ball on our discussion re: energy flow
>> >>> based
>> >>> currency...
>> >>>
>> >>> I went to Arizona where we had no Internet and learned all about
>> >>> solar
>> >>> power
>> >>>
>> >>> Then I became homeless for a while, lost my girlfriend, etc
>> >>>
>> >>> And now I'm back to work thanks to a sudden and unexpected turn of
>> events
>> >>>
>> >>> The problems with the P2P Energy Economy as of v3.00.00 boil down to
>> >>> this:
>> >>>
>> >>> Issue 1:
>> >>>
>> >>> "it's hard to see how individual energy producers would have any
>> >>> substantial surplus if they had tiny solar generators and it's even
>> >>> harder
>> >>> to see how there could be a flow of energy from peers with surplus to
>> >>> peers
>> >>> with deficit if everyone had a surplus. This is the basic and
>> >>> universal
>> >>> issue (or two issues,) IMO. For each given type of product (e.g.
>> energy,
>> >>> milk, cars, etc) we can't have everyone be a producer because the
>> >>> "flow
>> >>> of
>> >>> energy" is the "economy of life" and without a deficit on one side
>> >>> and
>> a
>> >>> surplus on the other there is no flow (or movement) of energy (and no
>> >>> flow
>> >>> of energy equal no life, literally.)
>> >>>
>> >>> So in order to have both the maximum surplus of the thing being
>> produced
>> >>> and the maximum flow of that thing from the surplus side to the
>> >>> deficit
>> >>> side, the production tends towards centralization (within each
>> geographic
>> >>> or
>> >>> virtual market)"
>> >>>
>> >>> Issue 2:
>> >>>
>> >>> The very act of paying someone (for a non-scarce resource) and
>> expecting
>> >>> some service back creates a master-slave (or more mildly a
>> >>> 'customer-server'
>> >>> relationship) relationship... and this is a type of hierarchy
>> basically.
>> >>> I'm
>> >>> having an issue with the idea of a hierarchy even though it's
>> established
>> >>> in
>> >>> nature and even if we use the kind of renewable hierarchies that I
>> >>> describe
>> >>> (in passing) in the P2P Energy Economy. I'm studying two game
>> theoretical
>> >>> models, the Prisoners Dilemma game and the Snowdrift (or Hawk-Dove)
>> game
>> >>> in
>> >>> the context of hierarchies, latices with limited set of
>> >>> neighbor-to-neighbor
>> >>> interactions per element and networks with random interactions. I
>> haven't
>> >>> had enough time with all that has been happening to produce any
>> >>> insight
>> >>> as
>> >>> far as the best type of system from a moral and evolutionary
>> perspective
>> >>> but
>> >>> I know the P2P Energy Economy sections concerned with organization
>> >>> are
>> >>> lacking.
>> >>>
>> >>> If you have anything to share on your end, as far as your work goes,
>> >>> please feel free to do so.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>>
>> >>> Marc Fawzi
>> >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>> >>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>> >>>
>> >>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> >>> "P2P Energy Economy" group.
>> >>> To post to this group, send email to
>> p2p-energy-economy at googlegroups.com
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >>> p2p-energy-economy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<p2p-energy-economy%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>
>> <p2p-energy-economy%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com<p2p-energy-economy%252Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>
>> >
>> >>> For more options, visit this group at
>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-energy-economy?hl=en
>> >>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>> >
>> > Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> > http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>> >
>> > Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>> >
>> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> > http://www.shiftn.com/
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Marc Fawzi
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>
> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>

-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi