[p2p-research] [p2p energy economy] Fwd: Follow up

Fri Apr 17 12:16:21 CEST 2009

Things are happening,

just a few things from my perspective,

- got word that at least half a dozen phd researchers in a helsinki
university were 'strongly influenced' by the p2p work, and also a local
group in Arkansas, 'where the p2p work is mentioned almost daily'

- also, got requests from romania, hungary in the last week, for essay
contributions

this is just a small sample,

what I would like to see is people connecting globally, under the umbrella
of the p2p foundation, to meet up etc...

utlimately, I think more explicitely political circles would be called for,
but like the P2P Research Group, with a independent to linked identity,

Michel

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:12 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I just want to say that I have a huge respect for Ryan and all his
> input to this collective realization. Same for everyone here.
>
> I am having my own archetypal struggle ATM as far as ideologies and
> behaviors go, but this group really has a great effect on my thinking,
> so please don't take my challenges as obstruction but rather as
> stemming from my need to harvest the collective psyche :)
>
> Its never easy being on the fringe. Feels like bumper cars. Like we
> should be able to put our thoughts tohbether in a more collective way.
>
> I'll leave it to Michel to make those connections.
>
> We can make a difference. I've seen it happen.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc
>
>
> On 4/16/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ryan,
> >
> > I find your contribution very interesting, because it touches the key
> > problem of the interoperability and exchangeability of multiple
> currencies
> > which may have little in common.
> >
> > As it is under-discussed, I would really appreciate if you could address
> > this issue for our blog, by expanding a little on your contribution here,
> > with an extra context for lay people so they understand its importance?
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Marc:
> >>
> >> This may seem a bit governmental, but I'd argue the key to your system
> is
> >> the policy objective a given currency wishes to optimize--set through
> some
> >> collaborative governance mechanism or by a representative group (e.g. a
> >> chamber of commerce or a community foundation).
> >>
> >> Use arbitrage between currencies allow different "pots" of money to
> >> reallocate.  In a prison, cigarettes might be used to buy services, and
> >> cans
> >> of mackeral used to buy goods, but you can have a market between mack
> and
> >> cigs.
> >>
> >> In other words, think of a rainbow of color currencies.  Orange is for
> >> this, blue is for that.  If you want blue to optimize efficient
> production
> >> of non-carbon energy, price it in energy units accordingly.  Let market
> >> mechanisms reallocate with possible REGULATORY governance actions that
> can
> >> intervene to change supply/demand in arbitrage options.
> >>
> >> There is a tendency for people to dislike markets because of some of
> their
> >> failings.  That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  The key to
> a
> >> polyarchic currency system, I believe, is to allow rapid creation of
> >> policy
> >> objectives (new colors) combined with rapid introduction of market-based
> >> arbitrage between colors.  Use limited numbers of price-settings in
> >> auctions
> >> to reduce speculative games.  In other words, the rate set between
> orange
> >> and blue may only be set twice a day, etc.
> >>
> >> Who sets?  The high bidder, up to some limit...then the next highest
> >> bidder, and so forth.
> >>
> >> The key is allowance of persistent coupon systems matching policy aims
> >> (like a bond market really, but more liquid and fungible).  In current
> >> worlds, that aim (the policy objective of a currency) is the growth of a
> >> given currency economy or allowance of government actions that can use
> >> currency devaluation to achieve some governmental policy objective (e.g.
> >> short term consumption against long-term pain.)
> >>
> >> Ryan Lanham
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:24 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Just sharing some notes on the current problems in the P2P Energy
> Economy
> >>> model
> >>>
> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>> From: marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
> >>> Date: Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Follow up
> >>> To: James Edwards <bluecollargreenie at gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi James,
> >>>
> >>> I'm sorry to have dropped the ball on our discussion re: energy flow
> >>> based
> >>> currency...
> >>>
> >>> I went to Arizona where we had no Internet and learned all about solar
> >>> power
> >>>
> >>> Then I became homeless for a while, lost my girlfriend, etc
> >>>
> >>> And now I'm back to work thanks to a sudden and unexpected turn of
> events
> >>>
> >>> The problems with the P2P Energy Economy as of v3.00.00 boil down to
> >>> this:
> >>>
> >>> Issue 1:
> >>>
> >>> "it's hard to see how individual energy producers would have any
> >>> substantial surplus if they had tiny solar generators and it's even
> >>> harder
> >>> to see how there could be a flow of energy from peers with surplus to
> >>> peers
> >>> with deficit if everyone had a surplus. This is the basic and universal
> >>> issue (or two issues,) IMO. For each given type of product (e.g.
> energy,
> >>> milk, cars, etc) we can't have everyone be a producer because the "flow
> >>> of
> >>> energy" is the "economy of life" and without a deficit on one side and
> a
> >>> surplus on the other there is no flow (or movement) of energy (and no
> >>> flow
> >>> of energy equal no life, literally.)
> >>>
> >>> So in order to have both the maximum surplus of the thing being
> produced
> >>> and the maximum flow of that thing from the surplus side to the deficit
> >>> side, the production tends towards centralization (within each
> geographic
> >>> or
> >>> virtual market)"
> >>>
> >>> Issue 2:
> >>>
> >>> The very act of paying someone (for a non-scarce resource) and
> expecting
> >>> some service back creates a master-slave (or more mildly a
> >>> 'customer-server'
> >>> relationship) relationship... and this is a type of hierarchy
> basically.
> >>> I'm
> >>> having an issue with the idea of a hierarchy even though it's
> established
> >>> in
> >>> nature and even if we use the kind of renewable hierarchies that I
> >>> describe
> >>> (in passing) in the P2P Energy Economy. I'm studying two game
> theoretical
> >>> models, the Prisoners Dilemma game and the Snowdrift (or Hawk-Dove)
> game
> >>> in
> >>> the context of hierarchies, latices with limited set of
> >>> neighbor-to-neighbor
> >>> interactions per element and networks with random interactions. I
> haven't
> >>> had enough time with all that has been happening to produce any insight
> >>> as
> >>> far as the best type of system from a moral and evolutionary
> perspective
> >>> but
> >>> I know the P2P Energy Economy sections concerned with organization are
> >>> lacking.
> >>>
> >>> If you have anything to share on your end, as far as your work goes,
> >>> please feel free to do so.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Marc Fawzi
> >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> >>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
> >>>
> >>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >>> "P2P Energy Economy" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to
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> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>> p2p-energy-economy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<p2p-energy-economy%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>
> <p2p-energy-economy%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com<p2p-energy-economy%252Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>
> >
> >>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-energy-economy?hl=en
> >>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> > http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
> >
> > Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> > http://www.shiftn.com/
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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