[p2p-research] Fwd: Follow up

Thu Apr 16 10:04:48 CEST 2009

maybe the right word is un-negligible... some English majors?

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:32 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree.
>
> I'm just trying to satisfy the devil inside. Its the universal
> ill-negligible.
>
> Always gets us.
>
> As far as humans vs animals, its a evolutionary gradient so we could
> say that, as far as evolution is concerned, the end justifies the
> means but there is defintely something wrong about giving up our moral
> soverignty to some outer or exterior force.
>
>
>
> On 4/15/09, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > agreed,
> >
> > I think the shift I (we?) are talking about is from
> > cooperation-within-competition to competition-within-cooperation,
> >
> > would you agree/disagree ?
> >
> > but peer production is definitely competitive,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:19 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I think it boils down to flavor and ultimately artistic choice... I
> >> prefer
> >> a little more competition in the framework (relative to what I think
> >> you've
> >> proposed and hence the comment I made in my previous message) but we're
> >> all
> >> aiming for A LOT more cooperation that capitalism affords!! and that's
> >> the
> >> common thread.
> >>
> >> I don't think we can have a single objective framework, so the more
> >> frameworks that share the general ideals the better the chance that a
> >> framework will emerge from all these efforts that will take us to the
> >> next
> >> stage in our evolution.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Marc,
> >>>
> >>> I dispute that my approach is purely moral. While I'm certainly not
> >>> knowledgeable enough about natural evolution and complexity theories,
> it
> >>> is
> >>> based on scrupulous observation of current evolutionary trends, and I
> >>> want
> >>> to use human agency to steer these trends in a particular direction.
> >>>
> >>> Human animals are part of nature, but also endowed with intention and
> >>> the
> >>> capacity to realize social relationships that go beyond that of the
> >>> animal
> >>> world. If that were not the case, we would fully abandon the old, let
> >>> people
> >>> with handicaps die, etc.. but we don't, because, despite the many ills
> >>> of
> >>> our societies, there is a moral agency at work that is specifically
> >>> human
> >>> (yes, many aspects are shared in part by different animal species, but
> >>> the
> >>> totality of it is a qualitative change)
> >>>
> >>> The p2p work has been read by people knowledgeable about
> >>> evolution/complexity who told me the p2p approach does not contradict
> >>> what
> >>> is known about human evolution (see in particular evolution's arrow,
> the
> >>> book)
> >>>
> >>> Michel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM, marc fawzi
> >>> <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> There is a moral orientation in all your saying, but it's lacking the
> >>>> evolutionary bias, which is important, IMO.
> >>>>
> >>>> Capitalism is built on a wrong model of evolution. Old thinking.
> >>>> Darwinian in nature.
> >>>>
> >>>> Experimental evidence and new game theory work agrees that there is a
> >>>> lot
> >>>> more cooperation in nature than can be explained by Darwinian theory
> or
> >>>> capitalism.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's where I want to go, beyond morality vs Darwinism and into how
> >>>> nature actually works (read: more cooperative than Darwinism but with
> >>>> an
> >>>> evolutionary focus) because I think, ultimately, it's pointless to be
> >>>> more
> >>>> fair than nature, or at least that's the struggle I'm going through
> >>>> right
> >>>> now, which I'm sure is shared with many...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I of course agree with your correction for para 2.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I would say is that 1) the cost of reproduction is marginal; 2)
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> cost of the first copy is variable; 3) the cost for the generalized
> >>>>> infrastructure is socialized and should remain so
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of course, I often use the simplifying, but ultimately misleading
> >>>>> polarity of immaterial vs. material, to make the important point of
> >>>>> understanding abundance, while in fact scarcity and abundance are
> >>>>> polarities
> >>>>> with many intermediate stages, as so well explained in the work of
> >>>>> Roberto
> >>>>> Verzola.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, the answer is: 1) free sharing as much as possible given the
> >>>>> constraints of first copy cost (moderate forms of IP are okay for
> me);
> >>>>> 2)
> >>>>> continued support for socialized internet infrastructure which allows
> >>>>> abundance to occur in the field of reproduction. Market and other
> >>>>> economies
> >>>>> deriving from open design can support the sharing and commons through
> >>>>> benefit sharing; while the partner state can intervene as
> 'subsidiary'
> >>>>> force, and find a social solution for peer producers sustainability
> >>>>> (full
> >>>>> basic income or transitional labour support measures.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM, marc fawzi
> >>>>> <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, both suggestions make a lot of sense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> However, for the second suggestion I have a problem with the
> >>>>>> definition
> >>>>>> of "non scarce" and "immaterial" and, coincidentally Patrick was
> >>>>>> asking the
> >>>>>> same question today on Stefan's list, and no one really is giving a
> >>>>>> realistic answer, IMO.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Digital and services goods are not immaterial and they have actual
> >>>>>> costs (of R&D, energy and maintenance) associated with the
> underlying
> >>>>>> infrastructure, so I consider them "non scarce" but still bound to
> >>>>>> costs and
> >>>>>> subject to some kind of sustainable exchange... So the question is
> >>>>>> what is
> >>>>>> the most liberal kind of exchange that is still sustainable (given
> >>>>>> digital
> >>>>>> goods and services do have costs)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marc
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> >>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Marc,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> thanks for sharing,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> concerning your para 1, why not consider 'subsidiarity' as a policy
> >>>>>>> framework, i.e.letting the lowest but most appropriate level do the
> >>>>>>> work and
> >>>>>>> use centralisation as an enabler? in other words, start with
> >>>>>>> household based
> >>>>>>> renewables, complement with neighborhood-based, regional, national,
> >>>>>>> international, each doing what the previous layer can't do on its
> >>>>>>> own
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> concerning para 2, I wonder if exchange or the market is
> >>>>>>> hierarchical
> >>>>>>> by itself, when it involves equivalent exchange, without passing by
> >>>>>>> prior
> >>>>>>> inequality and the forces expropriation of producers that was the
> >>>>>>> condition
> >>>>>>> for capitalist markets?however, you seem to talk about non-scarce
> >>>>>>> resources,
> >>>>>>> so you mean in the immaterial economy, then in that case, markets
> >>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>> unnecessary and only exist because enforced scarcity,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michel
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:24 AM, marc fawzi
> >>>>>>> <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Just sharing some notes on the current problems in the P2P Energy
> >>>>>>>> Economy model
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>>>>>>> From: marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:23 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Follow up
> >>>>>>>> To: James Edwards <bluecollargreenie at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi James,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm sorry to have dropped the ball on our discussion re: energy
> >>>>>>>> flow
> >>>>>>>> based currency...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I went to Arizona where we had no Internet and learned all about
> >>>>>>>> solar power
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then I became homeless for a while, lost my girlfriend, etc
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And now I'm back to work thanks to a sudden and unexpected turn of
> >>>>>>>> events
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The problems with the P2P Energy Economy as of v3.00.00 boil down
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> this:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Issue 1:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "it's hard to see how individual energy producers would have any
> >>>>>>>> substantial surplus if they had tiny solar generators and it's
> even
> >>>>>>>> harder
> >>>>>>>> to see how there could be a flow of energy from peers with surplus
> >>>>>>>> to peers
> >>>>>>>> with deficit if everyone had a surplus. This is the basic and
> >>>>>>>> universal
> >>>>>>>> issue (or two issues,) IMO. For each given type of product (e.g.
> >>>>>>>> energy,
> >>>>>>>> milk, cars, etc) we can't have everyone be a producer because the
> >>>>>>>> "flow of
> >>>>>>>> energy" is the "economy of life" and without a deficit on one side
> >>>>>>>> and a
> >>>>>>>> surplus on the other there is no flow (or movement) of energy (and
> >>>>>>>> no flow
> >>>>>>>> of energy equal no life, literally.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So in order to have both the maximum surplus of the thing being
> >>>>>>>> produced and the maximum flow of that thing from the surplus side
> to
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> deficit side, the production tends towards centralization (within
> >>>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>>> geographic or virtual market)"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Issue 2:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The very act of paying someone (for a non-scarce resource) and
> >>>>>>>> expecting some service back creates a master-slave (or more mildly
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> 'customer-server' relationship) relationship... and this is a type
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> hierarchy basically. I'm having an issue with the idea of a
> >>>>>>>> hierarchy even
> >>>>>>>> though it's established in nature and even if we use the kind of
> >>>>>>>> renewable
> >>>>>>>> hierarchies that I describe (in passing) in the P2P Energy
> Economy.
> >>>>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>>> studying two game theoretical models, the Prisoners Dilemma game
> and
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> Snowdrift (or Hawk-Dove) game in the context of hierarchies,
> latices
> >>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>> limited set of neighbor-to-neighbor interactions per element and
> >>>>>>>> networks
> >>>>>>>> with random interactions. I haven't had enough time with all that
> >>>>>>>> has been
> >>>>>>>> happening to produce any insight as far as the best type of system
> >>>>>>>> from a
> >>>>>>>> moral and evolutionary perspective but I know the P2P Energy
> >>>>>>>> Economy
> >>>>>>>> sections concerned with organization are lacking.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If you have anything to share on your end, as far as your work
> >>>>>>>> goes,
> >>>>>>>> please feel free to do so.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
> >>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> >>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
> >>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>>>>>>>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University-
> >>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> >>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> >>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> >>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> >>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marc Fawzi
> >>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> >>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> >>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> >>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> >>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> >>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> >>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Marc Fawzi
> >>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> >>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> >>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> >>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >>>
> >>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> >>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
> >>>
> >>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >>>
> >>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> >>> http://www.shiftn.com/
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Marc Fawzi
> >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> >> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
> > http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
> >
> > Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> > http://www.shiftn.com/
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
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