[p2p-research] Fwd: Follow up

Thu Apr 16 07:21:07 CEST 2009

agreed,

I think the shift I (we?) are talking about is from
cooperation-within-competition to competition-within-cooperation,

would you agree/disagree ?

but peer production is definitely competitive,

Michel

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:19 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it boils down to flavor and ultimately artistic choice... I prefer
> a little more competition in the framework (relative to what I think you've
> proposed and hence the comment I made in my previous message) but we're all
> aiming for A LOT more cooperation that capitalism affords!! and that's the
> common thread.
>
> I don't think we can have a single objective framework, so the more
> frameworks that share the general ideals the better the chance that a
> framework will emerge from all these efforts that will take us to the next
> stage in our evolution.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Marc,
>>
>> I dispute that my approach is purely moral. While I'm certainly not
>> knowledgeable enough about natural evolution and complexity theories, it is
>> based on scrupulous observation of current evolutionary trends, and I want
>> to use human agency to steer these trends in a particular direction.
>>
>> Human animals are part of nature, but also endowed with intention and the
>> capacity to realize social relationships that go beyond that of the animal
>> world. If that were not the case, we would fully abandon the old, let people
>> with handicaps die, etc.. but we don't, because, despite the many ills of
>> our societies, there is a moral agency at work that is specifically human
>> (yes, many aspects are shared in part by different animal species, but the
>> totality of it is a qualitative change)
>>
>> The p2p work has been read by people knowledgeable about
>> evolution/complexity who told me the p2p approach does not contradict what
>> is known about human evolution (see in particular evolution's arrow, the
>> book)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> There is a moral orientation in all your saying, but it's lacking the
>>> evolutionary bias, which is important, IMO.
>>>
>>> Capitalism is built on a wrong model of evolution. Old thinking.
>>> Darwinian in nature.
>>>
>>> Experimental evidence and new game theory work agrees that there is a lot
>>> more cooperation in nature than can be explained by Darwinian theory or
>>> capitalism.
>>>
>>> That's where I want to go, beyond morality vs Darwinism and into how
>>> nature actually works (read: more cooperative than Darwinism but with an
>>> evolutionary focus) because I think, ultimately, it's pointless to be more
>>> fair than nature, or at least that's the struggle I'm going through right
>>> now, which I'm sure is shared with many...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I of course agree with your correction for para 2.
>>>>
>>>> What I would say is that 1) the cost of reproduction is marginal; 2) the
>>>> cost of the first copy is variable; 3) the cost for the generalized
>>>> infrastructure is socialized and should remain so
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I often use the simplifying, but ultimately misleading
>>>> polarity of immaterial vs. material, to make the important point of
>>>> understanding abundance, while in fact scarcity and abundance are polarities
>>>> with many intermediate stages, as so well explained in the work of Roberto
>>>> Verzola.
>>>>
>>>> So, the answer is: 1) free sharing as much as possible given the
>>>> constraints of first copy cost (moderate forms of IP are okay for me); 2)
>>>> continued support for socialized internet infrastructure which allows
>>>> abundance to occur in the field of reproduction. Market and other economies
>>>> deriving from open design can support the sharing and commons through
>>>> benefit sharing; while the partner state can intervene as 'subsidiary'
>>>> force, and find a social solution for peer producers sustainability (full
>>>> basic income or transitional labour support measures.
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, both suggestions make a lot of sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, for the second suggestion I have a problem with the definition
>>>>> of "non scarce" and "immaterial" and, coincidentally Patrick was asking the
>>>>> same question today on Stefan's list, and no one really is giving a
>>>>> realistic answer, IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Digital and services goods are not immaterial and they have actual
>>>>> costs (of R&D, energy and maintenance) associated with the underlying
>>>>> infrastructure, so I consider them "non scarce" but still bound to costs and
>>>>> subject to some kind of sustainable exchange... So the question is what is
>>>>> the most liberal kind of exchange that is still sustainable (given digital
>>>>> goods and services do have costs)
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Marc,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks for sharing,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> concerning your para 1, why not consider 'subsidiarity' as a policy
>>>>>> framework, i.e.letting the lowest but most appropriate level do the work and
>>>>>> use centralisation as an enabler? in other words, start with household based
>>>>>> renewables, complement with neighborhood-based, regional, national,
>>>>>> international, each doing what the previous layer can't do on its own
>>>>>>
>>>>>> concerning para 2, I wonder if exchange or the market is hierarchical
>>>>>> by itself, when it involves equivalent exchange, without passing by prior
>>>>>> inequality and the forces expropriation of producers that was the condition
>>>>>> for capitalist markets?however, you seem to talk about non-scarce resources,
>>>>>> so you mean in the immaterial economy, then in that case, markets are
>>>>>> unnecessary and only exist because enforced scarcity,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:24 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just sharing some notes on the current problems in the P2P Energy
>>>>>>> Economy model
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>> From: marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:23 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Follow up
>>>>>>> To: James Edwards <bluecollargreenie at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry to have dropped the ball on our discussion re: energy flow
>>>>>>> based currency...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I went to Arizona where we had no Internet and learned all about
>>>>>>> solar power
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then I became homeless for a while, lost my girlfriend, etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And now I'm back to work thanks to a sudden and unexpected turn of
>>>>>>> events
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problems with the P2P Energy Economy as of v3.00.00 boil down to
>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Issue 1:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "it's hard to see how individual energy producers would have any
>>>>>>> substantial surplus if they had tiny solar generators and it's even harder
>>>>>>> to see how there could be a flow of energy from peers with surplus to peers
>>>>>>> with deficit if everyone had a surplus. This is the basic and universal
>>>>>>> issue (or two issues,) IMO. For each given type of product (e.g. energy,
>>>>>>> milk, cars, etc) we can't have everyone be a producer because the "flow of
>>>>>>> energy" is the "economy of life" and without a deficit on one side and a
>>>>>>> surplus on the other there is no flow (or movement) of energy (and no flow
>>>>>>> of energy equal no life, literally.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So in order to have both the maximum surplus of the thing being
>>>>>>> produced and the maximum flow of that thing from the surplus side to the
>>>>>>> deficit side, the production tends towards centralization (within each
>>>>>>> geographic or virtual market)"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Issue 2:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The very act of paying someone (for a non-scarce resource) and
>>>>>>> expecting some service back creates a master-slave (or more mildly a
>>>>>>> 'customer-server' relationship) relationship... and this is a type of
>>>>>>> hierarchy basically. I'm having an issue with the idea of a hierarchy even
>>>>>>> though it's established in nature and even if we use the kind of renewable
>>>>>>> hierarchies that I describe (in passing) in the P2P Energy Economy. I'm
>>>>>>> studying two game theoretical models, the Prisoners Dilemma game and the
>>>>>>> Snowdrift (or Hawk-Dove) game in the context of hierarchies, latices with
>>>>>>> limited set of neighbor-to-neighbor interactions per element and networks
>>>>>>> with random interactions. I haven't had enough time with all that has been
>>>>>>> happening to produce any insight as far as the best type of system from a
>>>>>>> moral and evolutionary perspective but I know the P2P Energy Economy
>>>>>>> sections concerned with organization are lacking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have anything to share on your end, as far as your work goes,
>>>>>>> please feel free to do so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Fawzi
>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>>>
>>>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>>>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marc Fawzi
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
>> http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
>> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com
>>
>> Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
>> http://www.shiftn.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>

-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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