[p2p-research] thinking about leapfrogging

[Kevin Carson]

On 10/7/08, M. Fioretti <mfioretti at nexaima.net> wrote:

>  > And you seem to be equating quality of life to the nature of inputs
>  > consumed rather than functional outputs.

> You seem to not have read carefully
>  http://p2pfoundation.net/Thoughts_on_P2P_production_and_deployment_of_physical_objects
>
>  Quoting myself from there:
>
>  > Think to affordable and open access to quality education, culture in
>  > all its forms, communication or advanced health care. Think to
>  > services like weather forecasts reliable enough to minimize human
>  > casualties or food waste.
>
>  I judge the quality of life provided by an autonomous society model or
>  lifestyle (also) from how it guarantees all these **functional
>  outputs**, not from *what* it consumes or in which quantities.

I apologize if I mischaracterized your position.

>  > The basic requirements of shelter and food can be met most
>  > efficiently by adapting "19th century technology," through new
>  > configurations and techniques.

> I **never** said the contrary, so all this effort is not necessary. I
>  say that to live well you need also need things or services that
>  cannot be manufactured or managed on a local, small, P2P scale only.

Local, small and P2P are not interchangeable.  There may be some forms
of industrial production whose capital outlays rule out P2P, but which
can still be done on a comparatively small scale for a local market.

I think the important point is that P2P and other alternatives for the
household and informal economy don't have to be piggybacked on a
full-blown highly capitalized industrial economy with centralized
infrastructure, on the present model.  I believe that 1) the majority
of the average person's use-value can be produced via P2P, household,
informal and barter economies, or via manufacturing in small factories
serving local markets, 2) the amount of large-scale industry required
to support an economy centered on such small-scale methods will be a
small fraction of its present amount, and 3) the transportation
infrastructure needed to support this residual economy of large-scale
production will be of much smaller capacity than at present--mainly
light rail networks linking local economies.

>  > A lot of it depends on what you mean by the "grid."  Large scale power
>  > consumption, which may be necessary in some cases, is not equivalent
>  > to a grid.  Even the largest industrial projects, arguably, can be
>  > most efficiently powered by generators scaled to the actual needs of
>  > the facility itself, at the point of consumption.

> but I'm not the one who dislikes such scenarios. You don't have to
>  tell this to me, I could have written this myself. Your example proves
>  my point. It is just another case where, IMO, the small farm or
>  community of idealists simply won't be able to be self-dependent and
>  live decently in the long term. Not until they recreate, with many
>  other communities some large organization which, at least in
>  principle, is exactly what they were trying to escape and leave behind
>  in the first place.
>
>  My point is simply that, if there is no way to become completely free
>  of some centralization and/or and mass production and live decently
>  (and frankly, I have read no proofs against this yet, just lots of
>  nice dreams and wishes), it may make much sense not to try to get rid
>  of it altogether (*) or at least it would be more intellectually
>  honest to acknowledge it. The only reason why I engaged in the
>  discussion which led to the article cited above was exactly reading
>  claims of "we're almost there yet, and that's a sustainable lifestyle"

I think most here don't envision getting rid of it entirely--just a
radical downscaling of centralization and mass production, and a shift
in emphasis to decentralized production as the dominant form.


-- 
Kevin Carson
Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
http://mutualist.blogspot.com
Studies in Mutualist Political Economy
http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
Anarchist Organization Theory Project
http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html