[p2p-research] Capital Club

[M. Fioretti]

On Fri, Mar 07, 2008 07:50:55 AM -0700, Patrick Anderson wrote:

> >  > Organizing with your neighbors to buy a rug-doctor is cheaper
> >  > if there are enough of you to keep that equipment busy, so why
> >  > don't we (consumers) do this more often?  Why do we leave that
> >  > work of organizing up to a business that intends to charge us
> >  > price above cost?
> >
> >  Maybe because (using the rug-doctor as a real world example):
> >
> >  - we have no _space_ where to store a Rug Doctor
> 

> This is a very good point.  The rental agency probably has space
> because they are storing so many other tools, and planned to store
> such a machine.
> 
> We need to collectively buy and own community centers that we have
> *real* ownership in where we can store such things.  I was going to
> save this for a later part of the discussion, I'll ask it now:
> 
> Why are we not allowed to store such things in a city-tax-funded
> facility?

such facilities may be planned in new cities. In most existing cities
I've seen so far, such facilities would either be not doable (lack of
suitable space), or so expensive to create vehement oppositions from
all citizens who have parquets instead of carpets (ie no personal need
for the facility, because they _already_ bought a house with storage
space or, very simply, the city has more urgent things to fix first
with its limited budget) or far enough from most users/owners to make
driving there to grab the rug doctor or whatever it is unconvenient.

Distinguishing what is feasible in the new perfect city to be built
tomorrow from what is feasible (and necessary/urgent) in the cities we
actually live in may be the hardest part.

This doesn't change the fact that this:
> What makes it so we (the citizens) have almost no control
> in government - even at the city level?

_is_ one of the big problems of our time.

> >  - we have no skills to fix it when it breaks
>
> Yes, but the rental-agency owner probably doesn't either.  He hires
> someone to fix such things, and supplies the tools for that work to
> avoid the overcharging a tool-owning mechaninc would impose.  We
> need to be able to *work* in our community center too.  Trading
> labor there should be one of the main purposes of a community
> center.

This is another crucial point. I and most city people I know would
probably hurt ourselves by fixing all the tools we use. Much more
important is the fact that trading labor directly in such a way may
simply be against an advanced (in the really important,
true-quality-of-life sense) society. Being actually able to do all I
need to live by myself is wonderful: being _forced_ to do it is an
entirely different thing and, I believe, puts a limit to how well
people can live.

An extreme example is health care: I want the doctors in my city
emergency room as experienced as possible. They shouldn't be required,
if they _don't_ want to do it as a hobby, to waste time fixing tools
in the community center instead of resting (in the broader sense, not
just sleeping) or practicing.

Same here:

> Imagine a car-repair shop or a woodworking shop where you could go
> use the expensive tools "at cost".  Wouldn't it be nice to have real
> control, and stop suffering the usury that currently keeps us from
> the rich lives we deserve?

Having access to such a possibility, yes. I'm all for giving people
more choice. But being forced to do everything by myself... I'm really
not sure it would make my own life, or society as a whole, richer.

> >  - (semi-serious) we, that is any generic group of neighbors in a
> >   generic city, all hate each other and the least interact the better
> >   we feel:-)
> 
> I think most people actually want to interact with others,

But in the ways and contexts _they_ choose, be they professional or
private ones. That's the crucial difference. Even if this:

> but the physical locations that we have available for such
> interaction are all designed for the sole purpose of extracting
> usury.
 
is surely true. I heard it expressed as "did you notice that all the
places [in Italy] were people really like to go, the ones that make
them feel actually better, not just better shoppers, are the ones
build centuries ago?"

> Thanks for the feedback.  Did I answer your concerns?

You certainly provided more interesting material to continue the discussion.
I look forward to further comments.

Regards,
	Marco

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