[p2p-research] Capital Club

[Samuel Rose]

PS.

Also, in the situation mentioned below, in economies based on voluntary
cooperation around common pool resources (a "commons"), you also can
excercise your http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?RightToFork, different
than Right to leave, but another option...

Point being at no time is anyone forced to do anything in situations of
voluntary cooperation around mutually recognized common pool resources.

This is also my answer to Ned Rossiter's question: "what makes you think I
want to work with you?"

Nothing.

Nothing makes me think you want to work with me. You'll tell me if you want
to work with me. In the mean time, I'll tell others how I think I can work
with them, and if you like that, and if I like you, you might just work with
me, if we both decide that you should. :-)

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, what I am talking about is voluntary cooperation only. Everyone has a
> http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?RightToLeave
>
> We co-discuss, and then voluntarily comply with our own rules. But, what
> if you absolutely refuse to cooperate, and cannot convince others to do
> thing syour way? http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?RightToLeave
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have an unwritten paper: "Corporatism vs. Eco-maoism, a 21st century
> > dialectic."
> > Unwritten for reasons :)
> >
> > I want to be very, very sure that we have a clear understanding that
> > "should" is one step away from armed enforcement. Global solutions typically
> > come with sanctions for those who disagree, if you see what I mean.
> >
> > Vinay
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
> > refugee shelter system
> > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)              Cell:
> > Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > http://hexayurt.com/     Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt      Two's company.
> > Three's Musketeers
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 7, 2008, at 12:14 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> >
> > Vinay, replies below
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm a Libertarian, albeit one who believes that there should be no
> > > such thing as a Limited Liability Company - it's not
> > > the government's business to form companies, any more than it's the
> > > government's business to marry people.
> > >
> >
> > But there can be contracts between people. A promise.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I believe that Libertarianism is not ready for prime time until the
> > > environmental protection issues are sorted out, but *nobody* has the right
> > > to tell me what to do and use force to compel me to obey, not the State, and
> > > nobody else.
> > >
> >
> > The problem we would need to solve would be, how to stop everyone from
> > killing each other? Everyone would have to *voluntarily agree* to co-manage
> > resources as a commons!!!!  Hwo can we get them to do this? Some will
> > realize the consequences: destruction of the earth. Some will not. Those who
> > realize consequences are compelled to work to convince (not through force)
> > to get those who do not or cannot realize, to voluntarily adopt new ways of
> > solving problems. So, those new ways *have* to be better at the existing
> > ways in solving problems these non-realizers care about! :-)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > You see why I'm taking this slowly and asking lots of questions. This
> > > is a very different perspective :)
> > >
> > > Vinay
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
> > > refugee shelter system
> > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)              Cell:
> > > Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > http://hexayurt.com/           Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt
> > >  hey i found squirrels
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 7, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> > >
> > > PS.
> > >
> > > This is why I think Lovins's work, Natural Capitalism, is valuable.
> > >
> > > Because it works towards creating a choice that people operating from
> > > many different world views could be likely to take.
> > >
> > > We are all stuck in a system that is focused on 'profit', and we will
> > > beyond the shadow of a doubt be stuck with people who are focused on
> > > 'profit' at least for the rest of all of our lives.
> > >
> > > So, what can we do to make appropriate technologies very profitable,
> > > while still being copylefted and open-sourced? We cannot compete within the
> > > same market systems, because those market systems work around
> > > lowest-cost-only. People are focused by marketing into concentrating on
> > > lowest cost. But for hexayurt, we could help you compete, not because you
> > > have the lowest price, but because you have connection to the communities of
> > > people who use your product. Or, you find and connect with those people. You
> > > can then add huge amounts of value simply by listening to those people, and
> > > what they want, and figuring out ways to give it to them, maybe in
> > > collaboration with us (open source ecology)? What could people do with
> > > hexayurt, and you, and us, that could actually help them build wealth?
> > > Instead of getting lowest cost from people who copied your design in China,
> > > and built it with peopel making slave wages, maybe you offer:
> > >
> > >
> > >    - a slightly higher cost, but considerably more equitable
> > >    production
> > >    - ability work closely with other related solution providers to
> > >    bring not just shelter, but other needed disaster relief
> > >    - support for sustainable food production, industry production,
> > >    energy production add ons to hexayurt
> > >
> > > I don't really know your market, so these are just stabs in the dark.
> > > But, if I had time to talk to the actual people who would use your
> > > solutions, and everyone in the chain, I could find these opportunties, I
> > > think. This is stuff that Douglas Rushkoff talks about in "Get back in the
> > > box" but I think it applies well to open design technologies
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In a nutshell: A way for people to solve their perceived problems of
> > > > existence, that gives them more direct control and power over themselves,
> > > > that gives real alternatives to existing government and mega corporation
> > > > infrastructure. A  way that allows people to freely pursue their own chosen
> > > > ways of life, but finds them choosing to solve problems in ways that are not
> > > > destructive to others, *because* these are the best, most efficient, and
> > > > even eventually easiest way to solve their perceived problems of existence.
> > > >
> > > > This is definitely what I believe myself, Marcin, Patrick, and
> > > > others are creating, right now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is no one answer, no one system, and there is no guarantee,
> > > > because we exist, right now, in a complex adaptive system. We cannot control
> > > > it. We can only learn to adapt the way that it adapts.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, I'm asking what you what direction these changes are in. If
> > > > > you succeeded, what would you create?
> > > > > Vinay
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public
> > > > > domain refugee shelter system
> > > > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)              Cell:
> > > > > Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > > > http://hexayurt.com/     Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt      Two's
> > > > > company. Three's Musketeers
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 6, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, I am working with others in *practice* to change this
> > > > > society, guiding vision in part to co-create with others new models that
> > > > > obsolete existing models...
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and how do you envisage changing this society?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public
> > > > > > domain refugee shelter system
> > > > > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)
> > > > > >        http://hexayurt.com/
> > > > > > Cell: Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > > > >  Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt
> > > > > > People with courage and character always seem sinister to the
> > > > > > rest              Herman Hesse
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mar 6, 2008, at 11:30 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you were replying to me, I have this actual society in mind,
> > > > > > that we are in right now...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Free people will create a free market. A free market will not
> > > > > > > create
> > > > > > > free people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I rather like profit, when I make it. I like other things
> > > > > > > more, at
> > > > > > > times, but I'm not sure what kind of a reform of society you
> > > > > > > have in
> > > > > > > mind...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vinay
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public
> > > > > > > domain
> > > > > > > refugee shelter system
> > > > > > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)
> > > > > > >  Cell:
> > > > > > > Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > > > > > http://hexayurt.com/           Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk:
> > > > > > > hexayurt             hey i found squirrels
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mar 6, 2008, at 9:57 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vinay,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope not to sound negative for no reason.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a specific problem with NatCap that is all too
> > > > > > > common: The idea
> > > > > > > > of 'profit' (keeping price above cost) is seen as a *goal*
> > > > > > > instead of
> > > > > > > > a central *problem*.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For instance, from http://www.natcap.org/sitepages/pid5.phpwe read:
> > > > > > > > "Natural Capitalism describes a future in which business and
> > > > > > > > environmental interests increasingly overlap, and in which
> > > > > > > businesses
> > > > > > > > can better satisfy their customers' needs, increase profits,
> > > > > > > and help
> > > > > > > > solve environmental problems all at the same time."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As long as profit is considered a goal in itself, the
> > > > > > > troubles I am
> > > > > > > > trying to describe will persist.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To reiterate, why do you buy your car instead of renting?
> > > > > > >  If profit
> > > > > > > > is important, wouldn't you want to pay it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your peer,
> > > > > > > > Patrick
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Vinay Gupta <
> > > > > > > hexayurt at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> What do y'all think of Natural Capitalism from Lovins et.
> > > > > > > al.?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Vinay
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > > > > > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > > OpenBusinessModels:
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > > http://openfarmtech.org
> > > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > > > > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > OpenBusinessModels:
> > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > http://openfarmtech.org
> > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sam Rose
> > > > Social Synergy
> > > > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > > > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> > > >
> > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > OpenBusinessModels:
> > > > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > http://openfarmtech.org
> > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
> > > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > > AIM: Str9960
> > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > skype: samuelrose
> > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> > >
> > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > http://openfarmtech.org
> > > Information Filtering:
> > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sam Rose
> > Social Synergy
> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > AIM: Str9960
> > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > skype: samuelrose
> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> >
> > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > http://barcampbank.org
> > http://communitywiki.org
> > http://openfarmtech.org
> > Information Filtering:
> > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://openfarmtech.org
> Information Filtering:
> http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>



-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
http://socialsynergy.typepad.com

Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
http://www.cooperationcommons.com
http://barcampbank.org
http://communitywiki.org
http://openfarmtech.org
Information Filtering:
http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
http://del.icio.us/srose
http://twitter.com/SamRose
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