[p2p-research] Capital Club
Samuel Rose
samuel.rose at gmail.com
Fri Mar 7 00:14:22 CET 2008
Vinay, replies below
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm a Libertarian, albeit one who believes that there should be no such
> thing as a Limited Liability Company - it's not the government's business to
> form companies, any more than it's the government's business to marry
> people.
>
But there can be contracts between people. A promise.
>
> I believe that Libertarianism is not ready for prime time until the
> environmental protection issues are sorted out, but *nobody* has the right
> to tell me what to do and use force to compel me to obey, not the State, and
> nobody else.
>
The problem we would need to solve would be, how to stop everyone from
killing each other? Everyone would have to *voluntarily agree* to co-manage
resources as a commons!!!! Hwo can we get them to do this? Some will
realize the consequences: destruction of the earth. Some will not. Those who
realize consequences are compelled to work to convince (not through force)
to get those who do not or cannot realize, to voluntarily adopt new ways of
solving problems. So, those new ways *have* to be better at the existing
ways in solving problems these non-realizers care about! :-)
>
> You see why I'm taking this slowly and asking lots of questions. This is a
> very different perspective :)
>
> Vinay
>
>
>
>
> --
> Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
> refugee shelter system
> Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!) Cell:
> Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> http://hexayurt.com/ Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt hey
> i found squirrels
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
>
> PS.
>
> This is why I think Lovins's work, Natural Capitalism, is valuable.
>
> Because it works towards creating a choice that people operating from many
> different world views could be likely to take.
>
> We are all stuck in a system that is focused on 'profit', and we will
> beyond the shadow of a doubt be stuck with people who are focused on
> 'profit' at least for the rest of all of our lives.
>
> So, what can we do to make appropriate technologies very profitable, while
> still being copylefted and open-sourced? We cannot compete within the same
> market systems, because those market systems work around lowest-cost-only.
> People are focused by marketing into concentrating on lowest cost. But for
> hexayurt, we could help you compete, not because you have the lowest price,
> but because you have connection to the communities of people who use your
> product. Or, you find and connect with those people. You can then add huge
> amounts of value simply by listening to those people, and what they want,
> and figuring out ways to give it to them, maybe in collaboration with us
> (open source ecology)? What could people do with hexayurt, and you, and us,
> that could actually help them build wealth? Instead of getting lowest cost
> from people who copied your design in China, and built it with peopel making
> slave wages, maybe you offer:
>
>
> - a slightly higher cost, but considerably more equitable production
> - ability work closely with other related solution providers to
> bring not just shelter, but other needed disaster relief
> - support for sustainable food production, industry production,
> energy production add ons to hexayurt
>
> I don't really know your market, so these are just stabs in the dark. But,
> if I had time to talk to the actual people who would use your solutions, and
> everyone in the chain, I could find these opportunties, I think. This is
> stuff that Douglas Rushkoff talks about in "Get back in the box" but I think
> it applies well to open design technologies
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In a nutshell: A way for people to solve their perceived problems of
> > existence, that gives them more direct control and power over themselves,
> > that gives real alternatives to existing government and mega corporation
> > infrastructure. A way that allows people to freely pursue their own chosen
> > ways of life, but finds them choosing to solve problems in ways that are not
> > destructive to others, *because* these are the best, most efficient, and
> > even eventually easiest way to solve their perceived problems of existence.
> >
> > This is definitely what I believe myself, Marcin, Patrick, and others
> > are creating, right now.
> >
> >
> > There is no one answer, no one system, and there is no guarantee,
> > because we exist, right now, in a complex adaptive system. We cannot control
> > it. We can only learn to adapt the way that it adapts.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Yeah, I'm asking what you what direction these changes are in. If you
> > > succeeded, what would you create?
> > > Vinay
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
> > > refugee shelter system
> > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!) Cell:
> > > Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > http://hexayurt.com/ Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt Two's
> > > company. Three's Musketeers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 6, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, I am working with others in *practice* to change this
> > > society, guiding vision in part to co-create with others new models that
> > > obsolete existing models...
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > and how do you envisage changing this society?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public
> > > > domain refugee shelter system
> > > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)
> > > > http://hexayurt.com/
> > > > Cell: Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > > Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt
> > > > People with courage and character always seem sinister to the rest
> > > > Herman Hesse
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 6, 2008, at 11:30 PM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If you were replying to me, I have this actual society in mind, that
> > > > we are in right now...
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Free people will create a free market. A free market will not
> > > > > create
> > > > > free people.
> > > > >
> > > > > I rather like profit, when I make it. I like other things more, at
> > > > > times, but I'm not sure what kind of a reform of society you have
> > > > > in
> > > > > mind...
> > > > >
> > > > > Vinay
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public
> > > > > domain
> > > > > refugee shelter system
> > > > > Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!)
> > > > > Cell:
> > > > > Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> > > > > http://hexayurt.com/ Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk:
> > > > > hexayurt hey i found squirrels
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 6, 2008, at 9:57 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Vinay,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope not to sound negative for no reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a specific problem with NatCap that is all too common:
> > > > > The idea
> > > > > > of 'profit' (keeping price above cost) is seen as a *goal*
> > > > > instead of
> > > > > > a central *problem*.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For instance, from http://www.natcap.org/sitepages/pid5.php we
> > > > > read:
> > > > > > "Natural Capitalism describes a future in which business and
> > > > > > environmental interests increasingly overlap, and in which
> > > > > businesses
> > > > > > can better satisfy their customers' needs, increase profits, and
> > > > > help
> > > > > > solve environmental problems all at the same time."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As long as profit is considered a goal in itself, the troubles I
> > > > > am
> > > > > > trying to describe will persist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To reiterate, why do you buy your car instead of renting? If
> > > > > profit
> > > > > > is important, wouldn't you want to pay it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your peer,
> > > > > > Patrick
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> What do y'all think of Natural Capitalism from Lovins et. al.?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Vinay
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sam Rose
> > > > Social Synergy
> > > > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > > > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> > > >
> > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > OpenBusinessModels:
> > > > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > http://openfarmtech.org
> > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
> > > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > > AIM: Str9960
> > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > skype: samuelrose
> > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> > >
> > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > http://openfarmtech.org
> > > Information Filtering:
> > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sam Rose
> > Social Synergy
> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > AIM: Str9960
> > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > skype: samuelrose
> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
> >
> > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > http://barcampbank.org
> > http://communitywiki.org
> > http://openfarmtech.org
> > Information Filtering:
> > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://openfarmtech.org
> Information Filtering:
> http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>
>
>
--
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
http://socialsynergy.typepad.com
Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
http://www.cooperationcommons.com
http://barcampbank.org
http://communitywiki.org
http://openfarmtech.org
Information Filtering:
http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
http://del.icio.us/srose
http://twitter.com/SamRose
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