[p2p-research] fyi: interview in Rome, on p2p learning (clip 2-12) and the transition to a p2p society (clip 1)

Sun Jul 20 11:19:48 CEST 2008

Thanks Henrik for these comments, I agree that non-participation is not a
great problem in p2p systems.

In a way, you could say that humanity has found to a way to factor in
non-particpation as a problem to route around

2 concepts express this well:

http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Comedy_of_the_Commons

http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Cornucopia_of_the_Commons

See also the counter-arguments against the tragedy of the commons thesis,
http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Tragedy_of_the_Commons

Michel

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Henrik Ingo <henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi>
wrote:

> Without knowing Kris at all, I'll boldly comment on the 2nd part:
>
> > (2) A second major phenomenon, hitting many attempts to p2p and
> synergistic,
> > integrative functioning, is a kind of non-compliance, non-motivation,
> > not-feeling-responsible by the majority of the group. Even in wiki-sites,
> > blogs, where interaction has only a minimal treshold, people not often
> feel
> > enough motivation to interact, to react on the proposed texts, to propose
> > alternatives, to elaborate integrations, to share experiences. The real
> work
> > renmains to be done by a little group of idealists. This participatory
> > discipline is, in my experiemnce, the major reason why so many
> idealistic,
> > synergistic initiatives spontaneously fall back, after a lapse of time,
> to
> > more hierarchical organizations, or fade out.
>
> The non-motivation should mostly not be seen as a problem. The thing
> is that in a global / internet-wide p2p setting, the mathematics are
> just very different than what we are used to. So there are millions of
> Linux users but only about 1000-1500 Linux (kernel) developers. And
> this is a very high number. There could be millions of users for
> something with only a handful of active contributors.
>
> Facebook is a good example of this too: Many FB users are probably
> like me, very passive, mostly just accepting friend requests. But
> maybe 2-4 times a month I feel inspired to forward something and maybe
> once a month I'll write something in my status box. And that's all
> that is needed. In the eyes of my connected FB friends that probably
> makes me an active FB user, since a couple of times a month something
> from me will pop up on their radar.
>
> To give a final example: I maintain a module in the Drupal CMS system
> (the Footnotes module). In a year I probably spend 40-60 hours
> programming it. If I didn't do anything for Drupal it probably
> wouldn't matter much. Even so, many other Drupal modules are just like
> this too. When you have hundreds of persons doing the 40-60 hour
> effort, it suddenly becomes significant.
>
> All of this is actually an aspect of the long tail phenomenon. So the
> fact that you have millions of passers by that don't contribute is
> just as it should be.
>
> And finally, there might be projects that really don't get off the
> ground for a lack of contributions. That should be seen as a feature
> too. It just means nobody cared. You might think your idea was
> important, but it wasn't. Or maybe it is, but you failed to convince
> anyone. Often for this reason many successful projects start with one
> mans heroic efforts for 1-2 years. Therefore the counter question is,
> did you care about your own idea enough to make that initial
> investment? (Hmm... I've written about this too: See first half of
> chapter http://openlife.cc/node/40)
>
> henrik
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Dear Kris,
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > The reason integration is not mentioned, is that I did not think of it in
> > this context<g>, because as you know, I have a very similar integrative
> > approach. And of course, I'm equally well aware of the problems of
> > non-participation. A cursory walk in the wiki will show that I cover
> these
> > topics extensively.
> >
> > I think that talking about the problems, which is fine in a group such as
> > these, is not always indicated for a general audience. I compare it to
> the
> > approach to sustainability: problem-oriented ecological education has
> been
> > proven to lead to cynicism and inaction, while approaches based on
> 'care',
> > lead to aware and active individuals. So I think that emphasizing the
> > problematic parts of p2p depends on the context of the audience.
> >
> > As you say, p2p is an ideal, but I would like to be more precise on that:
> 1)
> > for about 2% of the population, it's not an ideal, but a practice; 2) for
> > about 25% of the population it's an ideal; 3) for the rest, it can
> function
> > as a constitutional reality, embedded in protocols, which drives the
> average
> > practive upwards (figures from the research of susan-cook greuter,
> >
> http://www.slideshare.net/evansridge/integral-institute-community-presentation
> )
> >
> > So the solution is that the 2% should go ahead, inspire the others, and
> > embed as much as we can in the social protocols and norms,
> >
> > p2p practice is emerging, it is growing as an ideal, and it is in the
> > process of being embedded in social protocols, we <are> making progress,
> > despite the difficulties you are indicating
> >
> > You will find my take on integration here,
> >
> http://integral-review.org/documents/Integral%20Review%20and%20Its%20Editors%201,%202005.pdf
> ,
> > starting page 14 and entitled 'Beyond perspectives, reductionisms, and
> > layers'
> >
> > (By the way, can anyone help converting this in Word or doc, so that I
> could
> > republish it seperately?)
> >
> > For our friends here, your take on integration is also located here at
> > http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Integration
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Kris ROOSE <kroose at gmail.com>
> > Date: Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:25 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: [p2pf] fyi: interview in Rome, on p2p learning (clip 2-12)
> and
> > the transition to a p2p society (clip 1)
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Michel,
> >
> > thanks for this very clear explanation from Rome, as impressive as your
> > presentation from Australia. You really *have* the talent of speech.
> >
> > But again I feel a little bit frustrated by your non mentioning of two
> major
> > difficulties with p2p, synergy, etc., that very often are limiting its
> full
> > realisation. At least, as I perceive it.
> >
> > (1) of course, Google and every p2p system can gather all bits of
> knowledge,
> > distributed allover the globe and the Web. But I think that many bits of
> > information, including yet undiscovered and creative possibilities,
> > insoluble conflicts, are still missing. However perfect the search, the
> > essential information is often not (yet) available. And here comes in
> what I
> > call *integration*, a technique of creative thinking. It is not something
> > one masters spontaneously, or that automatically starts as soon as
> > internet-like communication channels become available. It is a technique
> and
> > an intellectual discipline that, along my experience as therapist and
> coach,
> > require explicit training. And in all p2p discourses I read and hear,
> this
> > crucial aspect of communication is nearly never mentioned.
> >
> > (2) A second major phenomenon, hitting many attempts to p2p and
> synergistic,
> > integrative functioning, is a kind of non-compliance, non-motivation,
> > not-feeling-responsible by the majority of the group. Even in wiki-sites,
> > blogs, where interaction has only a minimal treshold, people not often
> feel
> > enough motivation to interact, to react on the proposed texts, to propose
> > alternatives, to elaborate integrations, to share experiences. The real
> work
> > renmains to be done by a little group of idealists. This participatory
> > discipline is, in my experiemnce, the major reason why so many
> idealistic,
> > synergistic initiatives spontaneously fall back, after a lapse of time,
> to
> > more hierarchical organizations, or fade out.
> >
> > I.m.h.o, these both problems should deserve our full attention before we
> can
> > really step upwards to the next stage of the realisation of our p2p
> ideal.
> >
> > Regards, Kris
> >
> > 2008/7/19 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> See
> >>
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2008/07/18/p2p_and_education_robin_good.htm
> >>
> >> --
> >> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> >> alternatives.
> >>
> >> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> >> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >>
> >> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview
> at
> >> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> >> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> >> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >>
> >> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >>
> >> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> >> http://www.shiftn.com/
> >> __._,_.___
> >> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
> >> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members |
> Calendar
> >> MARKETPLACE
> >> ________________________________
> >> Yahoo! Groups users, check out this limited time offer from Blockbuster!
> >> Rent DVDs free for a month!
> >> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
> >> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch
> format
> >> to Traditional
> >> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
> >> Visit Your Group
> >> Ads on Yahoo!
> >>
> >> Learn more now.
> >>
> >> Reach customers
> >>
> >> searching for you.
> >>
> >> Featured Y! Groups
> >>
> >> and category pages.
> >>
> >> There is something
> >>
> >> for everyone.
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups
> >>
> >> Join a program
> >>
> >> to help you find
> >>
> >> balance in your life.
> >>
> >> .
> >> __,_._,___
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> > http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> > http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >
> > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> > http://www.shiftn.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> email: henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi
> tel: +358-40-5697354
> www: www.avoinelama.fi/~hingo <http://www.avoinelama.fi/%7Ehingo>
> book: www.openlife.cc
>

-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20080720/944f2e40/attachment-0001.html 