[p2p-research] fyi: interview in Rome, on p2p learning (clip 2-12) and the transition to a p2p society (clip 1)

Sun Jul 20 09:52:53 CEST 2008

Without knowing Kris at all, I'll boldly comment on the 2nd part:

> (2) A second major phenomenon, hitting many attempts to p2p and synergistic,
> integrative functioning, is a kind of non-compliance, non-motivation,
> not-feeling-responsible by the majority of the group. Even in wiki-sites,
> blogs, where interaction has only a minimal treshold, people not often feel
> enough motivation to interact, to react on the proposed texts, to propose
> alternatives, to elaborate integrations, to share experiences. The real work
> renmains to be done by a little group of idealists. This participatory
> discipline is, in my experiemnce, the major reason why so many idealistic,
> synergistic initiatives spontaneously fall back, after a lapse of time, to
> more hierarchical organizations, or fade out.

The non-motivation should mostly not be seen as a problem. The thing
is that in a global / internet-wide p2p setting, the mathematics are
just very different than what we are used to. So there are millions of
Linux users but only about 1000-1500 Linux (kernel) developers. And
this is a very high number. There could be millions of users for
something with only a handful of active contributors.

Facebook is a good example of this too: Many FB users are probably
like me, very passive, mostly just accepting friend requests. But
maybe 2-4 times a month I feel inspired to forward something and maybe
once a month I'll write something in my status box. And that's all
that is needed. In the eyes of my connected FB friends that probably
makes me an active FB user, since a couple of times a month something
from me will pop up on their radar.

To give a final example: I maintain a module in the Drupal CMS system
(the Footnotes module). In a year I probably spend 40-60 hours
programming it. If I didn't do anything for Drupal it probably
wouldn't matter much. Even so, many other Drupal modules are just like
this too. When you have hundreds of persons doing the 40-60 hour
effort, it suddenly becomes significant.

All of this is actually an aspect of the long tail phenomenon. So the
fact that you have millions of passers by that don't contribute is
just as it should be.

And finally, there might be projects that really don't get off the
ground for a lack of contributions. That should be seen as a feature
too. It just means nobody cared. You might think your idea was
important, but it wasn't. Or maybe it is, but you failed to convince
anyone. Often for this reason many successful projects start with one
mans heroic efforts for 1-2 years. Therefore the counter question is,
did you care about your own idea enough to make that initial
investment? (Hmm... I've written about this too: See first half of
chapter http://openlife.cc/node/40)

henrik

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Kris,
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> The reason integration is not mentioned, is that I did not think of it in
> this context<g>, because as you know, I have a very similar integrative
> approach. And of course, I'm equally well aware of the problems of
> non-participation. A cursory walk in the wiki will show that I cover these
> topics extensively.
>
> I think that talking about the problems, which is fine in a group such as
> these, is not always indicated for a general audience. I compare it to the
> approach to sustainability: problem-oriented ecological education has been
> proven to lead to cynicism and inaction, while approaches based on 'care',
> lead to aware and active individuals. So I think that emphasizing the
> problematic parts of p2p depends on the context of the audience.
>
> As you say, p2p is an ideal, but I would like to be more precise on that: 1)
> for about 2% of the population, it's not an ideal, but a practice; 2) for
> about 25% of the population it's an ideal; 3) for the rest, it can function
> as a constitutional reality, embedded in protocols, which drives the average
> practive upwards (figures from the research of susan-cook greuter,
> http://www.slideshare.net/evansridge/integral-institute-community-presentation)
>
> So the solution is that the 2% should go ahead, inspire the others, and
> embed as much as we can in the social protocols and norms,
>
> p2p practice is emerging, it is growing as an ideal, and it is in the
> process of being embedded in social protocols, we <are> making progress,
> despite the difficulties you are indicating
>
> You will find my take on integration here,
> http://integral-review.org/documents/Integral%20Review%20and%20Its%20Editors%201,%202005.pdf,
> starting page 14 and entitled 'Beyond perspectives, reductionisms, and
> layers'
>
> (By the way, can anyone help converting this in Word or doc, so that I could
> republish it seperately?)
>
> For our friends here, your take on integration is also located here at
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Integration
>
> Michel
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Kris ROOSE <kroose at gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:25 PM
> Subject: Fwd: [p2pf] fyi: interview in Rome, on p2p learning (clip 2-12) and
> the transition to a p2p society (clip 1)
>
>
>
> Dear Michel,
>
> thanks for this very clear explanation from Rome, as impressive as your
> presentation from Australia. You really *have* the talent of speech.
>
> But again I feel a little bit frustrated by your non mentioning of two major
> difficulties with p2p, synergy, etc., that very often are limiting its full
> realisation. At least, as I perceive it.
>
> (1) of course, Google and every p2p system can gather all bits of knowledge,
> distributed allover the globe and the Web. But I think that many bits of
> information, including yet undiscovered and creative possibilities,
> insoluble conflicts, are still missing. However perfect the search, the
> essential information is often not (yet) available. And here comes in what I
> call *integration*, a technique of creative thinking. It is not something
> one masters spontaneously, or that automatically starts as soon as
> internet-like communication channels become available. It is a technique and
> an intellectual discipline that, along my experience as therapist and coach,
> require explicit training. And in all p2p discourses I read and hear, this
> crucial aspect of communication is nearly never mentioned.
>
> (2) A second major phenomenon, hitting many attempts to p2p and synergistic,
> integrative functioning, is a kind of non-compliance, non-motivation,
> not-feeling-responsible by the majority of the group. Even in wiki-sites,
> blogs, where interaction has only a minimal treshold, people not often feel
> enough motivation to interact, to react on the proposed texts, to propose
> alternatives, to elaborate integrations, to share experiences. The real work
> renmains to be done by a little group of idealists. This participatory
> discipline is, in my experiemnce, the major reason why so many idealistic,
> synergistic initiatives spontaneously fall back, after a lapse of time, to
> more hierarchical organizations, or fade out.
>
> I.m.h.o, these both problems should deserve our full attention before we can
> really step upwards to the next stage of the realisation of our p2p ideal.
>
> Regards, Kris
>
> 2008/7/19 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
>>
>> See
>> http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2008/07/18/p2p_and_education_robin_good.htm
>>
>> --
>> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
>> alternatives.
>>
>> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
>> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>>
>> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
>> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
>> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
>> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
>>
>> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> alternatives.
>
> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>
> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
>
> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
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>

-- 
email: henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi
tel: +358-40-5697354
www: www.avoinelama.fi/~hingo
book: www.openlife.cc