[p2p-research] programming a direct democracy

Wed Jul 2 05:42:38 CEST 2008

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Henrik Ingo <henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi>
wrote:

> Greetings from Dublin, middle of the night...
>
> Yes, so in Open Source it is great that whoever can understand the
> code and invest time in programming can participate, those two things
> function like a good barrier to enter the system. (Since a project is
> interested in exactly the kind of programmers: who understand what
> they need to do and have time to do it.) But with legislation or other
> situations where the question is about power, I see it as almost a
> recipe for disaster to say that those who are the loudest ones and can
> afford to spend more time arguing than some other people, will
> eventually wear out the opposition and have the decisionmaking power
> for themselves. The difference with Open Source is that you can always
> choose to ignore a long winded discussion and choose to do productive
> work instead. I don't see how political decisionmaking could share
> that feature.

Participatory democracy systems need people who have the time and freedom to
participate, to self-educate, and to deliberate in fair and open forums.
(Not common qualities in most modern societies, some ideas about why
described here
http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2008/03/03/there-are-exactly-two-ways-one-and-manyand
in
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/)

Not only that, but these people also need to work together to
counter-balance any existing or emergent hegamonic/tyrannical power. These
can be recognized by their disrespect for self-rule processes, need for
control, and constitution of people who tend to hoard whatever gives them
that control.

>
>
> That being said, it is obviously true that a good voting system with
> no system for debate would be a hilarious thing too! (Random
> decisionmaking, almost?) So you need to have a system for good debate
> or deliberation too, but the power must not reside in the debate. You
> must be able to ignore the debate and still retain your share of
> power. Thus, you must be able to delegate your power so it is being
> used even if you don't invest your own time.

Systems like Consensus Polling are attempts to apply both voting and
deliberation. It is timed, gives people a chance to voice what they want to
be part of the "plan" being voted on, then eventually carries out the vote.
There is no way that loud people can theoreticaly overpower, because
everyone still has a vote (although they can appeal to emotion and fear as
always and get people to vote based on that). This could actually dovetail
well with the vote-delegation system that you have devised.

Deliberation can be focused on drafts of plans (legislation, contracts), and
I think this can help people focus their discussions and debates.

>
>
> I couldn't resist browsing the www.aktivdemokrati.se site a bit and it
> seems they have thought about this part quite a lot. For instance, the
> time a vote is open fluctuates depending on its activity. It is
> designed to make stupid proposals just go away and good ones to get
> approved when there are enough votes. Really interesting and there is
> an English FAQ at least.

>
> (Unlike myself, where I have thought more about the voting and
> delegation of that, assuming that Internet is good at organizing
> communication so I was never worried about that, kinda skipped that
> part.)
>
> henrik
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As I understand it, deliberative democracy is based on selecting (through
> > self-selection or trying to have a representative sample) a restricted
> > numbers of participants who can process the complex information for the
> > benefit of others?
> >
> > As I see it, online deliberation can scale, but local-physical
> deliberation
> > has to take place in smaller groups to be effective.
> >
> > I think it takes place 'before voting', so the critique of non-delegation
> > would not apply. Both approaches are compatible.
> >
> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Deliberative_Democracy
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Josef Davies-Coates
> > <josef at uniteddiversity.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Correct if I'm wrong but I think all Henrik was saying is that
> >> deliberation without the option to (I assume automatically,
> algorithmically)
> >> delegate your decision making power to someone else (ala Liquid
> Democracy/
> >> Delegative Democracy or similarly Smartocracy) who you trust on the
> matter
> >> isn't as inclusive as a system that does have that option.
> >>
> >> Not that we should completely dismiss deliberation.
> >>
> >> Josef.
> >>
> >> 2008/6/30 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>> Glad it was of use anyway, though I think your blanket dismissal of
> >>> deliberation is too radical!!
> >>>
> >>> We need both direct and deliberative,
> >>>
> >>> Michel
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:40 AM, Henrik Ingo <
> henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Michel,
> >>>>
> >>>> This was a nice link, though not perhaps for the reason you describe:
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm packing for a week-long business trip, so the whole article was
> >>>> too long for me to read now. However, I was glimpsing through it, and
> >>>> stopped when it talked about sitting in assembly raising hands.
> >>>> Clearly this is not what I'm interested in with my system. (Academic
> >>>> writing style gives me headache too!)
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, the technique proposed could be modified to a useful tool for
> >>>> "my" direct democracy society, perhaps... or not. In general I think
> >>>> "Deliberative Direct Democracy" ideas are misguided, since the
> >>>> fundamental assumption that people can or should spend all their lives
> >>>> debating legislation is false. (And since it is false it means that
> >>>> those who can spend the most time end up with most influence, which I
> >>>> consider a flaw.)
> >>>>
> >>>> But, the first comment leads to a very interesting Swedish party, with
> >>>> analogous ideas to myself. I should be in touch with them sometime.
> >>>> This is what I wanted to thank you for :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> henrik
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> http://efficasync.blogspot.com/2007/07/programming-deliberative-direct.html
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hi Henrik,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > re your presentation in nottingham,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I wonder if you could not report on the following on the blog, or
> >>>> > invite
> >>>> > Mark to do so?
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Efficasync - How to Program a Direct Democracy
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Programming a Deliberative Direct-Democracy.
> >>>> > A Method of Open-Source Self-Governance.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > SUMMARY
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Michael Mussman
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> >>>> > alternatives.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> >>>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> >>>> > http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499;
> interview
> >>>> > at
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> >>>> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >>>> >
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> >>>> >
> >>>> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> email: henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi
> >>>> tel: +358-40-5697354
> >>>> www: www.avoinelama.fi/~hingo <http://www.avoinelama.fi/%7Ehingo>
> >>>> book: www.openlife.cc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> >>> alternatives.
> >>>
> >>> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> >>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> >>> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >>>
> >>> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview
> at
> >>>
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> >>> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> >>>
> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >>>
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> http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Josef Davies-Coates
> >> 07974 88 88 95
> >> http://uniteddiversity.com
> >> Together We Have Everything
> >
> >
> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> > http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> > http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >
> > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> > http://www.shiftn.com/
>
>
>
> --
> email: henrik.ingo at avoinelama.fi
> tel: +358-40-5697354
> www: www.avoinelama.fi/~hingo <http://www.avoinelama.fi/%7Ehingo>
> book: www.openlife.cc
>
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