[p2p-research] [p2pf] Re: Defining terms for clear communication

Sun Jan 13 05:55:55 CET 2008

HI Dante,

it seems to me ieml is the most advanced application in that area, just
wondering why you do not mention it?

Michel

On Jan 13, 2008 12:24 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Michel , Patrick , All ,
>
> ... hmm ... although I might not be an expert , in relation to this thread
> , I just realize its interesting to situate our communication midst
> understanding of
> *
> ... semantics ( ? ) *
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics
> *
> ... pragmatics ( ? ) *
> *
> "Related to semantics is the field of ** pragmatics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics>,
> which studies the practical use of signs by agents<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent>or
> communities <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community> of interpretation
> within particular circumstances and contexts "
> **
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics
>
> **" ... The ability to understand another speaker's intended meaning is
> called **pragmatic competence. *"
> *
> ... Meta-Pragmatics ( ? )**
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metapragmatics
>
> " In anthropology <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_anthropology>,
> describing the rules of use for metapragmatic speech (in the same way that a
> grammar would describe the rules of use for 'ordinary' or semantic speech)
> is important because it can aid the understanding and analysis of a
> culture's linguistic ideology <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology>.* "
>
> I guess we do not yet have a language that allows for visualizing the
> specific definitions of each concept and meaning we want to express or build
> on. We often get lost in our own interpretations of semantics , or in
> redefining continually within a group what we might mean by a certain word ,
> and according to the context.
>
> The p2p foundation wiki might be useful in collecting and positioning
> different views and definitions.
>
> Yet I feel it does not yet facilitate building with simple complexity.
>
> I feel a positioning of relations , post symbolic language can emerge
> soon.
>
> I would be happy to work on this with anyone interested.
>
> I imagine a dynamic positioning of concepts relational base software.
>
> I m not fully sure about the details to technically build up such a tool
> for a language of languages.
>
> I imagine , as hypothesis , that with such a positioning of relations tool
> we could see the conceptual object and its relations to all other conceptual
> objects , at various levels of abstractions , directly on a screen , or in a
> 3d hologram navigation , while being able to add , compare , or build on
> everyones languages , not only from different cultures and spoken languages
> , but the different interpretation of every word according to the relations
> every person might make from it ,
>
> and based on this , it becomes easier to compare and build on our
> differences ,
> and create even more value , through difference ( as difference opens up
> new opportunities for relations )
>
> while also having a medium / new kind of support to visualize and build on
> infinite levels of abstractions.
>
> In the way I visualize it in head , it seems that on such a tool any
> concept , process , ... can be related between each other , in some ways
> like a big mind map , but a completely flexible mind map , that allows for
> multiple levels of abstraction ( for example , being able to use one
> relation between objects , as an object itself but at level of abstraction
> +1 , ... )
>
> I ve been researching projects or ideas that might relate to such
> intention ,or could be used and inspire such a tool.
>
> The list of links is availble under tags such as
> http://del.icio.us/deliciousdante/ReferenceMaps
> or http://del.icio.us/deliciousdante/visualization
>
> for example ,
> There are some softwares such as
>
> http://prefuse.org/
>
> but its not yet completely the kind of tool for a meta-cortex that I
> imagine.
>
> For every dynamic object to be able to see each other , I imagine there to
> be some kind of gravity - some links in relation to quantum gravity can also
> be found on
> http://del.icio.us/deliciousdante/ReferenceMaps
>
> I also like to imagine the combination of such a meta-cortex tool /
> dynamic positioning or relations at various levels of abstraction ,
>
> with a process dimensions engine software , for which details can be found
> on http://oikoumene.coforum.net/processdimensions
>
> I also guess cooperation could be possible with research departments in
> the field of
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_visualization
>
> I ve already mentionned such perspective with some of you ,
>
> and for those with which I did not share it with yet ,
>
> If you know any related projects , feel free to let me know.
>
> If you are interested in this topic , please lets get in touch.
>
> I believe such kind of tool , such kind of meta language , or new form of
> writing ,
>
> has the capacity to build beyond , yet integrate , all writing systems
> currently used and used throughout history  -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_system
>   - including syllabic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabary> and
> alphabetic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet> , logographic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logogram>, ... - , while also integrating all different meanings of words according
> to their contexts , throughout history ( as any kind of visualization option
> , including historical and other contextual projections could be chosen )
>
> When enough objects / concepts , ... relations at various levels of
> abstraction are added , even when the sets of relations made would still be
> in formation , by leaving it open for editing to everyone , and by allowing
> further emergence through networking relational data bases ,
>
> we will be able to visualize clouds , according to the perspective of
> visualization chosen ,
> of various meaning dimensions.
>
> Meaning Dimensions , at the ability to create new relations
> collaboratively based on their visualization , will allow a whole new path
> for communication , beyond verbal language , yet also integrating verbal
> language , written communication , of any language , any culture , any
> individual , any context , ...
>
> Greetings
>
> Dante
>
> http://oikoumene.coforum.net/DanteGabryell
>
>
> On Jan 12, 2008 1:56 PM, Michel Bauwens < michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >   Just to summarize my practical position, without the need to
> > misinterpret my thoughts (I do not advocate random strings in the wiki):
> >
> > - I fully support your project, as long as it is property
> > contextualized, that's all really
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> > On Jan 12, 2008 3:17 AM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 10, 2008 9:49 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi Patrick,
> > > >
> > > > I think your aim is totally irrealistic. Terms do never stabilize,
> > > they are ever moving > and used from particular perspectives which change
> > > over time, your example of
> > > > value is right on target for that. I did a lot of reading last year
> > > on that value thing,
> > > > only to conclude that it is used in a variety of ways. You can only
> > > enforce it in small
> > > > communities, probably with some power to back up your definitions.
> > > But the P2P
> > > > Foundation is a pluralist collective, with only a minimal consensus
> > > that peer to peer
> > > > is generally a good thing ...
> > >
> > > Ok.  I understand your goals for the wiki now.  I faultily assumed it
> > > was to be used toward the goal of *proving* or *disproving* parts of
> > > any one person's claims.  If the only purpose is to dump data that
> > > single humans have conjured into existence without debate or
> > > correction (I assume some of what I  write is also incorrect), then my
> > > approach is completely out of place.
> > >
> > >
> > > > What you can do is choose terms and define terms in the particular
> > > context of your
> > > > project, with the people who are willing to follow you on that path
> > > ... and for me
> > > > that means that it should be clearly indicated where that particular
> > > definition
> > > > comes from. Take cost, I'm using it in a very general way to refer
> > > to the debates
> > > > about coordination costs and transaction costs, as put forward by
> > > Benkler et al
> > > > and they are widely understood 'in a broad sense' in social science
> > > and economist
> > > > communities. As I reference the source, anyone can then verify what
> > > the
> > > > perspective is.
> > >
> > > Yes, we can view Benkler's arbitrary definition of 'cost', and we can
> > > view a dozen other definitions for 'cost', but when using the word in
> > > a sentence where we are trying to establish it's relation to 'price',
> > > 'profit', 'wage', etc. so that we can move forward with discovering
> > > the *truth* (assuming such a thing exists),  there is almost no hope
> > > of conveying our meaning to readers or for them to make meaningful
> > > replies because all of those terms are floating.
> > >
> > > What a mess.  Would it be any less effective to use random strings of
> > > characters to denote those terms?  Are you interested in discovering
> > > the real problems and solutions, or only in reporting what others have
> > > already dreamed up?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > In contrast, you give a definition, which in my view is terse and
> > > which I do not
> > > > understand, there is no reference, no contextual or perspectival
> > > add-on, and the
> > > > only way I could understand it, is if I have the willingness to
> > > follow you on a
> > > > long-term path of user ownership theory ...
> > >
> > > To clarify: I am not trying to "take over" any definition.  Anything I
> > > have written in the wiki is only my 'vote' toward that term's
> > > definition.  I assumed others would 'fight' with me about this until
> > > we could come to a semi-stable agreement.  As I said before, I really
> > > don't care which word is used for each definition, only that they can
> > > (eventually) be used when constructing sentences to each other so we
> > > don't have so many iterations and irritations.
> > >
> > > > the role of the wiki as I see it, is to offer a multi-perspectival
> > > vision on peer to peer
> > > > related subjects, not one particular view; if a particular view is
> > > offered, it should be
> > > > contextualized,
> > >
> > > Offering differing perspectives is useful at first, but will we ever
> > > use that data to come to any conclusions?   Is the whole point to
> > > simply record and to never act?  How will we know if any part of any
> > > theory is correct or incorrect if all we do is keep all authors
> > > separated by variations in terms?  That seems like a lonely and
> > > unproductive road.
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway, I'll make the changes you suggest with the tag
> > > [[Category:User_Owned]] if that is ok with you.
> > >
> > > (I think "User Owned" sounds better, as it compares well with the well
> > > known idea of "Worker Owned" corporations.)
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Michel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 10, 2008 10:43 PM, Lord AGNUcius <agnucius at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello fellow P2P Researchers!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My name is Patrick Anderson.  I've been lurking here for a few
> > > months, but
> > > > > when I tried to post a reply to Michel yesterday, my email was not
> > >
> > > > > recognized I think because of something to do with the way DNS
> > > resolves my
> > > > > email address to my hosting provider instead of to my registered
> > > domain...
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, that's all fixed and here is my slightly edited response:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Michel,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with your concern, but the fix you propose would not help
> > > > > our community come to any sort of "agreement" on the definition of
> > > the
> > > > > terms we need to communicate clearly with each other.  Any such
> > > > > "agreement" would probably need to be held in a sort of
> > > semi-stable
> > > > > 'tension' after many suggestions, battles, and rewrites, but at
> > > least we
> > > > > would know what terms to choose when writing new sentences to
> > > minimize
> > > > > confusion.
> > > > >
> > > > > I consider term definition the primary reason for faulty
> > > communication and
> > > > > misunderstanding that often leads to unnecessary conflict and lack
> > > of
> > > > > resolution.
> > > > >
> > > > > For instance, what does the word 'Value' mean?  To some people,
> > > 'Value'
> > > > > means the ability withhold the physical sources of production from
> > > user
> > > > > control for the sole purpose of keeping price above cost.
> > >  Governments use
> > > > > this definition and the scarcity logic based on it to do terrible
> > > things
> > > > > in the name of progress including using OUR tax dollars to pay
> > > farmers to
> > > > > NOT grow foods such as wheat so supply is artificially restrained
> > > and
> > > > > profit is perpetuated.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > After writing that last paragraph I was reading the Oekonux list
> > > and
> > > > > noticed a great example of this:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dmytri Kleiner writes at http://www.oekonux.org/list-en/archive/msg04129.html
> > >
> > > > > >> Here Stefan appears to have lost his command of the distinction
> > > > > >> between "value" (use-value) and "price" (exchange-value). Does
> > > > > >> he mean that workers can capture the "use-value" of their
> > > > > >> labour-power ("work-force")? This would mean his claim was
> > > > > >> self-contradictory as with equal access to productive assets
> > > > > >> this by definition would be the final product of their
> > > > > >> labour ("value of their work")?
> > > > >
> > > > > Stefan Meretz responds with
> > > > > http://www.oekonux.org/list-en/archive/msg04145.html
> > > > > >>> Due to "translations" being wrong, you are mislead. Value
> > > means value,
> > > > > >>> and not use-value. Price means price and not exchange-value.
> > > > >
> > > > > How can we ever expect to help each other resolve concerns when we
> > > are not
> > > > > even speaking the same language?  We each live in our own little
> > > world
> > > > > where every word and phrase means slightly different things to
> > > each of us
> > > > > depending upon our background and the assumptions we make.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really care which definition is chosen for each term, only
> > > > > that we can finally use them in regular discourse and that they
> > > are
> > > > > 'stable' enough to allow the creation of claims and proofs that
> > > have
> > > > > deterministic meaning.
> > > > >
> > > > > Once these definitions stabilize, the meaning of a sentence such
> > > as:
> > > > > "Profit can be calculated as the difference between the Price a
> > > consumer
> > > > > pays, and all the Costs (including Wages) that the Owners already
> > > paid for
> > > > > that round of Production." will either make sense to the reader,
> > > or that
> > > > > reader can click on any of those terms to find what the community
> > > has
> > > > > already decided about how that word or phrase is to be
> > > interpreted.  The
> > > > > clickability of those words is not yet automated, but could be
> > > through a
> > > > > plugin that implements the ideas at
> > > http://CommunityWiki.org/en/PlainLink
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > I will add the tags you suggest if you reject this proposal, but
> > > otherwise
> > > > > would like to see pages such as the following adjusted according
> > > to what
> > > > > is most "correct" in the collective minds of the P2P Foundation
> > > members.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Rent
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Cost
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Price
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Profit
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Wage
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Product
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Physical_Source
> > > > > http://P2PFoundation.net/Value
> > > > >
> > > > > ... There are others I've forgotten for now...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your peer,
> > > > > Patrick
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Patrick,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanks for adding your items to the wiki, which I think is a
> > > good thing
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > however, I'm concerned by the lack of context for readers, as
> > > your prose
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > very terse, and self-referential, referring to a context most
> > > people will
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > unfamiliar with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I therefore propose to things:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) that you would have your own area under Projects (see bottom
> > > of right
> > > > > > column); that you would tag your items so they also appear
> > > automatically
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > that category, and that you clearly indicate in your entries,
> > > some
> > > > > > indication of the context, for example: "as used in [[User
> > > Ownership]]
> > > > > > theory .. Readers have to know why there is no general
> > > description of the
> > > > > > term, but a definition within a specific context .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think? If you agree, what should you/we use as a
> > > specialized
> > > > > > tag? Perhaps: [[Category:Usertheory]] ??
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michel
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > > >
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > > alternatives.
> > > >
> > > > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499;
> > > interview at
> > > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > > > BEST VIDEO ON P2P: http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
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> > http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
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> >
> >
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> >  Visit Your Group
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/p2pf;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNDdkcGFoBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1MTkzNDUxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MDY4MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTIwMDEzODk5Nw-->| Yahoo!
> > Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> | Unsubscribe
> > <p2pf-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=>
> >   Visit Your Group
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/p2pf;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZWVrMDZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE1MTkzNDUxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MDY4MgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyMDAxMzg5OTc->
> >  Parenting Zone
> >
> > Your home for<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jm688iv/M=493064.12016283.12445687.8674578/D=groups/S=1705060682:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1200146197/A=5045822/R=0/SIG=11gsqr691/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/parenting/>
> >
> > parenting information
> >
> > on Yahoo! Groups.
> >  Autos Group
> >
> > on Yahoo! Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j55tnhn/M=493064.12117566.12537396.8674578/D=groups/S=1705060682:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1200146197/A=5170413/R=0/SIG=11b4jsa2l/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/craftsmanauto>
> >
> > Discuss ways to
> >
> > fix your car.
> >  Search Ads
> >
> > Get new customers.<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j0l1tdt/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705060682:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1200146197/A=3848641/R=0/SIG=1312g85fq/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2003&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups2&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50>
> >
> > List your web site
> >
> > in Yahoo! Search.
> >   .
> >
> > __,_._,___
> >
>
>

-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

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