[p2p-research] so is there a new class?

Mon Jan 7 04:27:29 CET 2008

Very well put Sam,again, can I put this in the blog? Or can I have a general
agreement by all, or by some people, that I may refract this material on
occasion. You guys know my style I think, I always source the material, am
careful of context, etc...

Michel

On Jan 6, 2008 10:56 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree that it exists still, as do many components of the legacy of
> earlier eras. I also agree that people use the word "class" in more than one
> way. I understand the paradigms of emancipatory tradition. I agree that
> there are objective structural conditions in society. I agree it's possible
> to "classify" them, based on many different ways of measuring, including
> income, quality of life, etc. I tend to find some of the classification
> systems we employ, both in general discourse, and in more academic circles,
> limiting. Limiting to both our quest to understand the nature of humans, and
> limiting to the people who come to accept their classification.
>
> Yet, I also try to understand human nature, not just through the world
> view of academic and philosophical viewpoints, but also equally through the
> complex adaptive, bio-psycho-social-systems active in the majority of people
> in the world, who are processing and acting from a viewpoint that is
> generally not literate of the concepts that you describe.
>
> So, I ask "why are there objective, structural conditions in society? Why
> do some people end up in some 'class' in society? Why are some people
> reacting against the notion of being part of a class?"
>
> My argument is that quite a significant amount of people do not even know,
> nor understand that they are adopting and adapting to external conditions by
> solving problems in a "peer production" fashion. Instead, these people are
> gravitating towards these ways of solving problems, because the pressure of
> the conditions of the existing social paradigm is compelling them towards
> it.
>
> There are many more dimensions to the emergence of "p2p" human phenomenon
> than I've often seen or heard being discussed. These dynamics of shifts in
> human nature have, at the same time, at least a biological, a psychological,
> and a social/complex environmental component. Integral theory is useful, but
> often unfortunately not understood. I think integral theory was successful
> in accurately packaging multiple complexities, and emergent patterns into
> useful shorthand terms before very many people outside of a small circle of
> academics were able to understand and comprehend how it all is
> inter-related.
>
> I am starting to outline a "Literacy of Human Nature" here:
> http://communitywiki.org/en/LiteracyOfHumanNature that attempts to explore
> how these dimensions and factors fit together.
>
> Those different factors combine to affect the emergence of humans who
> solve their problems of existence by carrying out activities in a "peer
> production" fashion. I think that many of those very people actually intuit
> the confining nature of being regarded as being part of a "class".  So, some
> of them seek and find ways of solving existential problems in ways that seem
> to them to obsolete the dominance of the "class" paradigm. Not abolish
> "class", but to make it irrelevant and obsolete, and impotent in their own
> lives, and the lives of those connected with them. A quaint, old-fashioned
> notion, like the dusty old books about eugenics that you can find in the
> basement archive of our local university library.
>
> The need to frame and define an emerging new phenomenon as the "Rise of a
> new class" is especially ironic to me, when the people under consideration
> in the case of "p2p" phenomena appear to me to be rejecting "class", and
> that rejection,  in my observation and estimation,  is one of their core
> fundamental assumptions about how to solve their problems of existence. The
> definition of people as part of a "class" is too limiting, even if it
> originates in widely accepted academic roots. It confines the "view" too
> narrowly, and even when employed from academic/critical/emancipatory
> tradition, tends to confine understanding to a very few people.
>
> My observation is that the need or desire to frame emerging human
> phenomenon in terms of "class" is actually more often than not employed
> *because* of it's confining properties. Because it reinforces the limited
> concepts it refers to. Plus, it's a headline component that is guaranteed to
> grab some readers :)
>
> I also don't see Marx as the penultimate go-to filter through which to
> understand p2p phenomena. I see Marx as one man who thought about this a
> while ago, and articulated his thoughts very well. Yet, I see that many
> people are able to intuit and act upon their conditions of existence, and
> their existential problems in ways that I have never seen described by Marx,
> nor very many other people. The best way that I have found to date
> understand "why" these people are doing this, "what is in it for them?",
> "who is doing what to whom, and why?" is to look at the bio-psycho-social
> conditions of existence, and to think about how this human bio-psycho-social
> system fits into larger complex systems. Looking at it this way immediately
> reveals to me that this is *not* a "mass-culture" phenomenon. It is not the
> rise of a "class" of people in society. Instead it is a simultaneous
> localized emergence of ways of solving problems that is a reaction to the
> breakdown, corrosion, and failure of existing mass culture social, economic,
> political, and other infrastructure. Many of these failures and breakdowns
> are rooted in the fundamental need to establish caste, class, and other
> stratified barriers among people, so as to establish "one-up/one-down"
> relationships with people, for the purposes of control of people and
> resources.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2008 2:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sam,
> >
> > I must partly disagree with you. That there is differentiation,
> > complexity, individualization does not mean there are no objective
> > structural conditions in society, though of course people within a
> > structural condition may behave in different fashions. I think class in the
> > US is used in a descriptive, psycho-social fashion, but that is not how it
> > is used within the emancipatory tradition. This being said, the original aim
> > of Marx was not different than yours, i.e. analysing class, but in order
> > to supersede and abolish them.
> >
> > I think that peer to peer, if we use an integral methodology, should be
> > recognized as both a (inter)subjective and (inter)objective phenomenom, so
> > that inquiries into its objective side, make sense and can be illuminating.
> > It is both the cause and the effect of new structural conditions, which
> > includes class configurations that are changing.
> >
> > This being said, giving a class analysis of peer to peer trends is no
> > easy matter, since it is both the expression of new groups of people
> > responding to new structural conditions and possibilities, but at the same
> > time a  general change in life practice that affects everybody.
> >
> > Now, in practical terms in my own work, I do generally avoid 'class
> > language', as it has mostly antagonizing and dysfunctional results, but that
> > does not mean that thinking about it is superfluous,
> >
> > But I also agree with your statement that peer to peer in fact reflects
> > a very basic desire to be emancipated of class, but that doesn't mean it
> > doesn't 'exist' still,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> > On Jan 5, 2008 9:50 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Class" is a framing that comes from mass culture/large
> > > corporate-industry-oriented views of the world.
> > >
> > > By framing all emerging new behavior as a the "rise of a new class",
> > > this puts the new behavior in a context that it can be potentially studied,
> > > and ultimately co-opted and/or controlled to benefit systems and
> > > beneficiaries of (what I calling) mass culture.
> > >
> > > Think about how "class" is usually employed as a descriptor: "The
> > > working class, the management class" etc
> > >
> > > It's my opinion that one of the key, vital components of social
> > > systems that afford healthy peer to peer activity is the widespread
> > > rejection of "class"-systems of people, among people. A shift in the focus
> > > of fundamental motivators, from a motivation in control of the perceivable
> > > world towards materialistic gain, to a way of solving problems that is
> > > motivated by a newfound realization of the nature and value of humans,
> > > living systems, resources is free and un-controlled things, who must be
> > > listened to, to be understood, and who are not just another "resource", but
> > > are actual people.
> > >
> > > This is what David Korten is talking about with his idea of a "Great
> > > Turning" from "Empire" to "Earth Community". It's what Clare W. Graves
> > > talked about in explaining his research of human value systems, and the
> > > pattern of fundamental assumptions of humans that he recognized being
> > > centered around individual materialistic gain, and the subsequent
> > > fundamental assumption that emerged that found people instead focusing on
> > > person-to-person sharing, and commons-based economies. Graves observed that
> > > the latter did not go about thinking about people in terms of "classes" so
> > > much, and instead radically insisted that all people are "equal". Graves
> > > then observed that a new type of individual emerged from *these* groups (at
> > > least in the western world), who rejected the totally "equal" notion, and
> > > did see differences in people, but the differences were in *thinking
> > > systems*, the way that people solved problems, and not in people themselves.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a recognition that people's total "world" view is a
> > > combination of internal dynamic neuronal systems, *and* external life
> > > conditions.  There is (at least) a biological "scale", and a psycho-social
> > > "scale",and an environment "scale" to be observed in total system of a human
> > > and it's environment.
> > >
> > > I think the usual notion of "class" strips away much of the complexity
> > > of the human condition, and re-inforces the illusion in people's minds that
> > > human conditions are highly "fixed". I'm interested in "p2p" ideas, because
> > > I think they leverage the potentials that were already there in the total
> > > human system (internal bio systems, and external environment) to explode
> > > "classes" from within.
> > >
> > > It's interesting to me that the building blocks now exist that allow
> > > many, many people to defy being classified, and to avoid having to settle
> > > into a socio-cultural "role"/strata. Yet, I observe that many people do it
> > > anyway. Even people as young as 20 years old. Of course, it's due to the
> > > legacy of mass culture, and it's design to reinforce those roles. But, if
> > > you talk to many of those people, they will readily admit that they do not
> > > desire their pre-assigned "role", but they accept or adopt it, because it is
> > > perceived as being "needed" to survive in existing culture. So, not wanting
> > > to be part of a "class" is one potential that I see, along with the
> > > conditions that make it possible for a person to live in such a way as to
> > > defy easy classification within existing systems. People who can now produce
> > > their own mass media, people who can now collectively create and grow and
> > > fund the collection of knowledge. People who can design and release
> > > technology as part of a commons that they co-maintain. Those collections of
> > > people are usually made up of people from many different traditional
> > > economic "classes".
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 5, 2008 1:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > fascinating article ... insightful ...
> > > >
> > > > but I think that 'conservative' is not the right word .. there is no
> > > > relationship with the christian right or neoconservatives ..
> > > >
> > > > I think that for Gen Y, distinctions like working inside or outside
> > > > the system no longer make sense, they simply use what is there,
> > > > pragmatically, and create the new stuff that they need to realize themselves
> > > > ... And similarly for the conservative/progressive divide, they pick and
> > > > choose pragmatically
> > > >
> > > > whether there is a new class is a complex issue
> > > >
> > > > 1) I think that a section of the owner class is reconfiguring to
> > > > participation-enablers
> > > >
> > > > 2) I think that a section of the 'producing' class is increasingly
> > > > involved in peer production and peer-informed practices and are structurally
> > > > different from industrial workers
> > > >
> > > > 3) that young people most clearly exemplify that trend
> > > >
> > > > 4) that p2p is a new life practice for everybody, to different
> > > > degrees ...
> > > >
> > > > There are now 800,000 free agents in the netherlands ... a very
> > > > sizeable number ....
> > > >
> > > > I created an overview page here ...
> > > > http://www.p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Class_Theories
> > > >
> > > > Michel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Michel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 5, 2008 5:35 AM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/01/04/obama%e2%80%99s-victory-in-iowa-sheds-light-on-todays-workplace/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > the emergence of a p2p class?
> > > > > or not?
> > > > >
> > > > > -p
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > > >  PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > > > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > > > >
> > > > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > > > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > > >
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> > > >
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
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> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net ; Blog, at
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
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> >
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1-+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://extinctionlevelevent.com
>
> Information Filtering:
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> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>

-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
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