[p2p-research] Fwd: arguments against applying open/free to other content

[Paul B. Hartzog]

Just a quick chime in here....

Even if it is true that artists couldn't make a living in the
industrial era infrastructure (or even if we just allow that it was
harder), the economics of the long tail change everything.

All that is required is to make enough money to sustain a practice and
that has always meant simply reaching enough sources willing to funnel
money to the artist.  This has been greatly facilitated by
technologies of cooperation.  Most of the sustainable music on sites
like Rhapsody is in the long tail.  The 'hits-based' curve is history.

-paul

On Feb 20, 2008 8:32 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> Marco,
>
> Most our argument seems to boil down to getting rid of copyright, vs.
> keeping it, and "myths" that you think people have or perceive about these
> issues . I think all artists should *keep* copyright, even those releasing
> under public domain, but within the terms of their copyright, declare how
> they want copyright applied to their work.
>
> I don't really care if the above statement appears to addresses your issues
> or arguments, or not. I think you should do some talking to artists, and
> musicians who make a living from art/music, you may be surprised about their
> attitudes.
>
>
>
>
> You also wrote:
>
> "I'll just add to this that side jobs don't count in discussing these
> issues. Sure, one can survive with a clerk or farming job, or even
>  teaching guitar, literature or mathematics and play or write at
> night."
>
> I survived for a couple of years solely off of revenue from being an
> independent recording artist/touring musician. I know many others who have,
> too.
>
> Still, I think you are wrong that saying that "side jobs don't even count in
> discussing these issues". Maybe they do not count for you, but they sure as
> hell count for me. There is absolutely no reason not to consider *anyone*
> who is making money, and decisions about making money as an
> artist/musician/creative, into the equation.
>
>
> "But if this is the _only_ way to survive for an artist, if an artist
> cannot be just an artist full time, with as little powerful patrons
>  and intermediaries as possible... it isn't a good thing for society as
> a whole, we haven't progressed all that much since the middle ages and
> a reformed copyright continues to seem to me the most natural,
>  effective and intrinsically right way to avoid these errors."
>
> The ways that you discuss are not the only ways to survive as an artist. My
> father in law is a full time, fully self employed artist, and has been for
> over 40 years. He has no rich patrons, yet makes a living from art.
>
> Here is one clue: For every self-employed, independent artist, there are at
> least 3 times as many other independent self-employed people out there, who
> are employed in other trades or fields, but can use artistic talents in
> their work. There are huge markets for enterprising visual and audio
> artists. They are not "get rich" markets, though, they are "make a living"
> markets.
>
> Here is why I think you lack an understanding of how some artists and
> musicians make a living (at least in the US, and in areas where I can speak
> from actual experience): ***Most of the time, for independent artists who
> make an actual living from art or music, total protection of works not come
> into play as an important factor*** many of them could easily allow re-use
> under certain conditions, and often benefit by way of re-use with
> requirement attribution (giving credit to original source). This does not
> mean that licensing is not also a factor, but the times when most
> independent artists are able to charge multiple license charges from one
> piece of work are often far less than the money they make from producing
> unique works for individual paying clients.
>
>
> So, an artist can release works, like photography, or creative images, under
> a creative commons license that either totally lets people re-use for
> commercial purposes (provided they give him attribution) or is allowed only
> for non-commercial purposes. Usually, the work that the artist does is only
> valuable to the one client who may have payed him to do it. And often, that
> client, and the artist would benefit from allowing the copying and
> redistribution of the image, which would aid publicity of both the artist
> and the client. Usually the artists works are not stolen by some huge
> corporation, as is often imagined.  If artists are worried about that, there
> is something they can very easily do about it.
>
> That is artists. Musicians do make money, making music and licensing it to
> record labels and radio stations. But, it's more nuanced than that.
>
> I'd like you to read, if you've already read, it, re-read
> http://www.negativland.com/albini.html  and understand that most *really
> successful* and popular musicians signed to a record label, working through
> middle men as you suggest, walk away with peanuts, with the equivalent of a
> convenience store worker's wages, after everyone gets their cut. This is the
> reality of working through middle men in the music industry, as you suggest
> at http://digifreedom.net/node/58
>
> So, musicians can actually stand to do better if they go it alone. But, they
> lack infrastructure for publicity and distribution, and this is where
> creative commons-style licenses can help, when musicians try to sell their
> works online. Most independent musicians make the majority of their money by
> way of touring, with some coming from selling recordings and merchandise.
> When I toured in a band, people would record our shows, and trade them
> online. This was fine with me, because it helped to promote our music, it
> helped to take the place of the middle men who would have otherwise taken a
> huge cut of the money we made from playing shows, selling merchandise, etc.
>
> Maybe over where you are at, people are actually arguing about no copyright
> vs. copyright, but over here, many people have caught on to the idea of a
> spectrum of rights, like those found in creative commons license. This lets
> artists protect what they actually know their interests to be. Because, in
> real practice, and in the emerging media ecology,  there are more ways to
> make a living from creative works than just encircling them with copyright
> and demanding that any and all users pay you.
>
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2008 1:48 AM, M. Fioretti <marco.fioretti at eleutheros.it> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 10:02:06 AM +0700, Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > > Hi Marco,
> > >
> > > perhaps you would be interested to join the p2p research list, which
> > > is mostly, but not exclusively, academics and research oriented
> > > people?
> >
> > Michel,
> >
> > It would be an honor for me to join discussion at such a level, even
> > if just to sit quietly in a corner to listen and/or to play devil's
> > advocate one or two times.
> >
> > This week I _must_ finish some other things first, so don't expect any
> > reaction but this note before next Monday, but I will certainly come
> > back with more questions and coments, either on the p2p research list
> > or directly.
> >
> > Later,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >                Marco
> > --
> > Eleutheros:  www.eleutheros.it
> >             A Catholic approach to Information Technology
> >             Un approccio Cattolico all'Informatica
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
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>
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                 --Paul B. Hartzog
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