[p2p-research] Fwd: arguments against applying open/free to other content

Wed Feb 20 14:32:30 CET 2008

Marco,

Most our argument seems to boil down to getting rid of copyright, vs.
keeping it, and "myths" that you think people have or perceive about these
issues . I think all artists should *keep* copyright, even those releasing
under public domain, but within the terms of their copyright, declare how
they want copyright applied to their work.

I don't really care if the above statement appears to addresses your issues
or arguments, or not. I think you should do some talking to artists, and
musicians who make a living from art/music, you may be surprised about their
attitudes.

You also wrote:

"I'll just add to this that side jobs don't count in discussing these
issues. Sure, one can survive with a clerk or farming job, or even
teaching guitar, literature or mathematics and play or write at
night."

I survived for a couple of years solely off of revenue from being an
independent recording artist/touring musician. I know many others who have,
too.

Still, I think you are wrong that saying that "side jobs don't even count in
discussing these issues". Maybe they do not count for you, but they sure as
hell count for me. There is absolutely no reason not to consider *anyone*
who is making money, and decisions about making money as an
artist/musician/creative, into the equation.

"But if this is the _only_ way to survive for an artist, if an artist
cannot be just an artist full time, with as little powerful patrons
and intermediaries as possible... it isn't a good thing for society as
a whole, we haven't progressed all that much since the middle ages and
a reformed copyright continues to seem to me the most natural,
effective and intrinsically right way to avoid these errors."

The ways that you discuss are not the only ways to survive as an artist. My
father in law is a full time, fully self employed artist, and has been for
over 40 years. He has no rich patrons, yet makes a living from art.

Here is one clue: For every self-employed, independent artist, there are at
least 3 times as many other independent self-employed people out there, who
are employed in other trades or fields, but can use artistic talents in
their work. There are huge markets for enterprising visual and audio
artists. They are not "get rich" markets, though, they are "make a living"
markets.

Here is why I think you lack an understanding of how some artists and
musicians make a living (at least in the US, and in areas where I can speak
from actual experience): ***Most of the time, for independent artists who
make an actual living from art or music, total protection of works not come
into play as an important factor*** many of them could easily allow re-use
under certain conditions, and often benefit by way of re-use with
requirement attribution (giving credit to original source). This does not
mean that licensing is not also a factor, but the times when most
independent artists are able to charge multiple license charges from one
piece of work are often far less than the money they make from producing
unique works for individual paying clients.

So, an artist can release works, like photography, or creative images, under
a creative commons license that either totally lets people re-use for
commercial purposes (provided they give him attribution) or is allowed only
for non-commercial purposes. Usually, the work that the artist does is only
valuable to the one client who may have payed him to do it. And often, that
client, and the artist would benefit from allowing the copying and
redistribution of the image, which would aid publicity of both the artist
and the client. Usually the artists works are not stolen by some huge
corporation, as is often imagined.  If artists are worried about that, there
is something they can very easily do about it.

That is artists. Musicians do make money, making music and licensing it to
record labels and radio stations. But, it's more nuanced than that.

I'd like you to read, if you've already read, it, re-read
http://www.negativland.com/albini.html  and understand that most *really
successful* and popular musicians signed to a record label, working through
middle men as you suggest, walk away with peanuts, with the equivalent of a
convenience store worker's wages, after everyone gets their cut. This is the
reality of working through middle men in the music industry, as you suggest
at http://digifreedom.net/node/58

So, musicians can actually stand to do better if they go it alone. But, they
lack infrastructure for publicity and distribution, and this is where
creative commons-style licenses can help, when musicians try to sell their
works online. Most independent musicians make the majority of their money by
way of touring, with some coming from selling recordings and merchandise.
When I toured in a band, people would record our shows, and trade them
online. This was fine with me, because it helped to promote our music, it
helped to take the place of the middle men who would have otherwise taken a
huge cut of the money we made from playing shows, selling merchandise, etc.

Maybe over where you are at, people are actually arguing about no copyright
vs. copyright, but over here, many people have caught on to the idea of a
spectrum of rights, like those found in creative commons license. This lets
artists protect what they actually know their interests to be. Because, in
real practice, and in the emerging media ecology,  there are more ways to
make a living from creative works than just encircling them with copyright
and demanding that any and all users pay you.

On Feb 20, 2008 1:48 AM, M. Fioretti <marco.fioretti at eleutheros.it> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 10:02:06 AM +0700, Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > Hi Marco,
> >
> > perhaps you would be interested to join the p2p research list, which
> > is mostly, but not exclusively, academics and research oriented
> > people?
>
> Michel,
>
> It would be an honor for me to join discussion at such a level, even
> if just to sit quietly in a corner to listen and/or to play devil's
> advocate one or two times.
>
> This week I _must_ finish some other things first, so don't expect any
> reaction but this note before next Monday, but I will certainly come
> back with more questions and coments, either on the p2p research list
> or directly.
>
> Later,
>                Marco
> --
> Eleutheros:  www.eleutheros.it
>             A Catholic approach to Information Technology
>             Un approccio Cattolico all'Informatica
>
>

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