[p2p-research] Wikipedia, Citizendium, Eduzendium, ...
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Tue Feb 5 04:40:44 CET 2008
If you like what Sam has written, see here for more material on
change-dynamics, at
http://del.icio.us/mbauwens/Change-Dynamics
On Feb 5, 2008 10:20 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 4, 2008 9:03 AM, Athina Karatzogianni <athina.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I just had a chance now to read this discussion and by coincidence I
> > have been discussing with my students, while teaching a course on New Media
> > and Politics, the issues of participation, democracy and power in relation
> > to online projects. So it seems quite topical to me right at this moment.
> >
> > I think a big problem comes from the fact that political and
> > particularly western democratic theory has dealt with participation in a
> > very bizarre way. Sadly, it seems what has prevailed regarding theories of
> > participation in maintream political theory is that the more it
> > increases, the more it 'lowers' the quality of democracy, as the lower
> > classes participate more and this elitist view inevitably has costs for our
> > understanding of participation and the internet. The current figures of
> > political participation in western democracies, according to some, have to
> > stay low for democracy to work......(blame it all to the Greeks I do!!)
> >
> > This idea has dictated odd and downright exlusive/binary political
> > practices, on a micro-level, such as those you referring to in the case of
> > wikipedia. Moreover, in my view you can't get credit for 2 out of 3, you
> > need all three things identified by Jon earlier to be there to talk of
> > peer-to-peer, and perhaps some more, otherwise you end up with good
> > intentions, espoused ideals and organizational philosophies, which when
> > translated in reality, in real actions, they are not really charactiristics
> > of p2p practicing communities. Simply then, you can't have your pie and eat
> > it too, pretending to be revolutionary/transformative or whatever and all
> > that while you just apply a selection of these processes (thats more like
> > some of the NGOs!). Or I will do my 'hobby' (the word MIchel hates) get
> > credit for it, create reputational capital for myself and hope that I ll be
> > a little bit revolutionary as well if it turns out that way..........like a
> > collateral damage kind of thing
> >
> > It is also funny that one of you mentioned the Soviets.There is a
> > feeling I am getting some times that perhaps we are in a way running again
> > on a more global level, a much more sophisticated early 21st century
> > understanding of social tranformation resembling the early 20th century
> > international communist ideas, which of course resembles sth else before
> > that (Anarchist theorists and before that bourgeois revolutions), if we look
> > at this from world-systemic perspective. I think the bigger question is
> > right now is whether the explosion of new political ideas due to new
> > technologies is there to conserve the status quo or transform it. I am
> > getting mixed signals, which maybe signifies the creation of country-blocks
> > again in the future.
> >
>
> I think also that you see these mixed signals, because some of the 6.5billion people in this world are not yet ready for the kind of radical
> change implied.
>
> It is human nature, that when confronted with change that a human is not
> yet ready for, those humans will either:
>
>
> - "circle the wagons" and try to conserve the status quo ways of
> solving problems of existence
> - "regress" back to earlier ways of solving problems of existence
>
> Yet, we all live together in one global system, so you get the mixed
> signals.
>
> Radical revolution will only ever happen where the majority of humans are
> "ready" for the type of change in question.
>
> But what does that mean, being "ready for a type of change"?
>
> American Psychology professor Clare W. Graves
> http://www.clarewgraves.com/home.html identified six conditions in his
> researchwhich must be present for change to occur. Those six conditions are
> (these were later repeated in the Spiral Dynamics book):
>
> 1. Potential
> 2. Solutions
> 3. Dissonance
> 4. Insight
> 5. Barriers (or thresholds) identified and overcome
> 6. Consolidation and support
>
> These can be described this way (from http://www.vmacgill.net/paper.htm):
>
> 1. The basic potential for change must exist. Chimpanzees are
> *physically* unable to speak. No amount of learning will change this.
> 2. Solutions must exist for present or previously unresolved
> problems. If we do not yet have an adequate grasp of the existing world view
> or a critical situation takes all our energy, we cannot move to the next
> "world view". We would not expect to see a bold new vision for the education
> of English children appearing in 1944. All energy was channeled into
> defeating Hitler.
> 3. There must be a level of dissonance. If we are perfectly happy
> where we are, nothing moves us to change. Something must feel uncomfortable
> or out of balance.
> 4. Insight into the situation is required with some idea of what the
> better future might be. There must be some prospect of a better life, a
> sense that there is hope in continuing.
> 5. The Barriers to change must be identified and overcome. Correctly
> identifying the barriers is crucial. Most individuals initially will see the
> barriers as external (economy, social norms, tyrant boss, etc), but they are
> often internal (lack of planning, wasted energy, misplaced effort,
> self-sabotage, etc.). Once the barriers are identified, they must be (a)
> eliminated, (b) bypassed, (c) neutralized, or (d) reframed into something
> else. (quoted from
> http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2006/10/six-conditions-needed-for-change.htmla great explanation)
> 6. Consolidation and support. The tender new shoot is vulnerable in
> a way it will never be as a large tree. When a leap forward is made, it must
> be reinforced and encouraged, to avoid slipping back to the previous state.
>
> This page
> http://integral-options.blogspot.com/2006/10/six-conditions-needed-for-change.htmlalso gives a good description of the Potential for change
> ("Open/Arrested/Closed" to change) which are also directly from Graves's
> original research.
>
> When a new way of solving the problems of human existence emerges, these
> dynamics above influence the way that many different people deal with that
> emergence. Some people are currently focused on personal physical survival,
> some on "getting rich", and some are focused on improving social equity, and
> some are focused on preserving the traditions of the past, to give a few
> examples, all living in the same interconnected world system, at the same
> time.
>
> So, the question that I am thinking about is "what type of change are
> significant amounts of people really ready for, right now?"
>
> What kinds of change can meet the conditions above? What types of change
> can likely be sustained, and can be expected to realistically see uptake
> among large amounts of people?
>
> One type of change that I think people are now ready for is to start
> seeing resources as co-governed "commons" instead of "commodities" upon
> which people should stake individual claims. I think that there is
> substantial Potential, "dissonance", and insight emerging among people about
> the conditions of environment, depletable resources, and imminent
> destruction as a result of the present course. People are ready for this
> type of change, right now, today. This is where I think that people like us
> can have a substantial impact upon the world and the non-destructive
> evolution of humans over the course of the next 30+ years. Helping people
> understand how to govern depletable resources of many kinds as a commons,
> and how to transition existing socio-economic infrastructure away from
> commodity-driven markets without having to lobby governments and hope they
> will listen and respond to you in time.
>
>
>
> > Yours
> > Athina
> > --
> > Dr Athina Karatzogianni
> > Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
> > The University of Hull
> > United Kingdom
> > HU6 7RX
> >
> > Check out Athina's work:
> >
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyberconflict-Routledge-Research-Information-Technology/dp/0415396840/
> >
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Resistance-Conflict-Contemporary-World/dp/0415452988/
> >
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyber-conflict-Politics-Contemporary-Security-Studies/dp/0415459702/
> >
> > http://vectors.usc.edu/thoughtmesh/publish/135.php
> >
> > Press interviews:
> >
> > France:http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-924253,0.html
> >
> > http://www.20minutes.fr/article/180599/Monde-La-Chine-a-soif-d-informations.php
> > Greece:http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,id=78490200
> >
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2008 1:46 PM, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> > >
> > > JA = Jon Awbrey
> > > MB = Michel Bauwens
> > >
> > > Michel,
> > >
> > > I will make some attempt to work through your initial comments
> > > before moving on to the newer responses. Old stuff is tagged
> > > and indented, my current comments are unindented.
> > >
> > > JA: It may take me several passes to work through your text below.
> > >
> > > JA: Let me begin with your definition of peer production,
> > > even though I remain a little troubled by a nagging
> > > sense that some essential element of equality is
> > > missing from the mix.
> > >
> > > MB: | Peer production has three aspects:
> > > | 1) voluntary contributions;
> > > | 2) participatory processes;
> > > | 3) commons oriented output.
> > >
> > > JA: You have stated your opinion that Wikipedia exemplifies
> > > or exhibits the characters of 1 and 3, lacking only 2.
> > >
> > > JA: There are several questions that I would have to ask at the
> > > outset:
> > >
> > > JA: A. Is peer production like "fire production", where missing any
> > > side
> > > of the "fire triangle" -- fuel, heat, oxygen -- breaks the chain
> > > of necessary causes? Or does one get partial credit for 2/3?
> > >
> > > JA: B. What is the output? What is the product of ultimate interest?
> > > Is it the content of documents and files, the content of minds,
> > > or is it the conditional general resolution of people to act in
> > > certain ways, in short, beliefs? [beliefs or habits (Peirce)].
> > >
> > > JA: C. What does it say about the level of voluntary contribution
> > > when there is a very high level of involuntary exclusion?
> > >
> > > Re:
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/from-citizendium-to-eduzendium/2008/01/29#comment-182719
> > >
> > > MB: Very clear reply ... though I'm still unsatisfied, and the reason
> > > is of course, that, despite the failing of enacting values in the
> > > participatory process, it still has 2 of the 3 functions of peer
> > > production,
> > >
> > > MB: let's say that for me peer production is an objective mode
> > > that potentially expresses an 'espoused ideal', and to
> > > different degrees, it will have discrepancies with
> > > how these ideals are espoused.
> > >
> > > Just to be clear, we know the espoused ideals by their "espousals",
> > > that is, from their announcement in the advertisements, prospecti,
> > > and other public representations collectively known as "PR". But
> > > whether there is any objective mode of production that actualizes
> > > these espousals within a given project or range of activities, ay,
> > > there's the rubber that seeks to gain traction on the road of good
> > > intentions.
> > >
> > > Though advertisements may turn our attention to a particular area
> > > of activity in the world, we must gather our impressions about the
> > > objective mode of it through actual experience interacting with it.
> > >
> > > Discrepancies between preaching and practice can be symptoms of many
> > > different states of affairs, anything from a moment's inattention to
> > > chronic incapacities to reprobate mendacity on the part of preachers.
> > >
> > > When we speak of "governance" in the system-theoretic sense of
> > > "regulation",
> > > then we become very interested in the "differential dynamics"
> > > engendered by
> > > these differences. Indeed, you can usually tell a person who wants to
> > > fix
> > > the problem and who knows at least how to begin fixing the problem
> > > from
> > > a person who wants nothing more than to deny the problem and hide the
> > > very existence of the problem from others by that person's attitude
> > > toward these discrepancies.
> > >
> > > But I already know the tribal attitude of Wikipediots toward solving
> > > any problem.
> > > It is summarized in the Chapter & Verse of WP:BEANS, which amounts to
> > > the advice:
> > > "Ignore it and maybe it will go away."
> > >
> > > Have to break here ... will continue from this point next time ...
> > >
> > > Jon Awbrey
> > >
> > > MB: The other thing though, is how to establish a kind of cutting off
> > > point,
> > > when it really becomes something else.
> > >
> > > MB: Take Russia, at what point did it become something altogether
> > > different
> > > than the originally espoused ideals of socialism? How real where
> > > the
> > > original soviets? how significant was it that competing
> > > interpretations
> > > where suppressed from the very start; and what did it really become
> > > when
> > > stalinism was fully consolidated as a new system: was it state
> > > socialism,
> > > state capitalism ?? extremely difficult questions
> > >
> > > MB: and here we are at the very beginning of peer production,
> > > witnessing a degradation ... at what point does it really
> > > turn into something altogether different??
> > >
> > > MB: So my question to you is:
> > >
> > > MB: what then, has it become?
> > >
> > > MB: If not peer production and governance, you would then have
> > > to explain to me how to 'explain away the input and output
> > > feature, as being also part of another system? and then
> > > explain that other system, which in my eyes, is not
> > > a market, nor a command and control system ...
> > >
> > > MB: So my problem is:
> > >
> > > MB: 1) to see it as a degeneration of peer production and governance,
> > > but
> > > still exemplying this new mode of production; and we can then
> > > discuss
> > > the various degrees of degeneration and perhaps indicate cut-off
> > > points
> > > (by analogy, when did the perhaps original council system become a
> > > top down
> > > but different system, only retaining public property, but embedding
> > > it in a
> > > new extremely totalitarian and unequal hierarchy system);
> > >
> > > MB: 2) to see it as something different than peer production, yet
> > > another mode?
> > >
> > > MB: Please explain how you see this.
> > >
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > >
> > > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> > > inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
> > > mwb: http://www.mywikibiz.com/Directory:Jon_Awbrey
> > > mathweb: http://www.mathweb.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey
> > > getwiki: http://www.getwiki.net/-UserTalk:Jon_Awbrey
> > > p2p <http://www.getwiki.net/-UserTalk:Jon_Awbreyp2p> wiki:
> > > http://www.p2pfoundation.net/User:JonAwbrey
> > > zhongwen wp: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey
> > > ontolog: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?JonAwbrey
> > > http://www.altheim.com/ceryle/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JonAwbrey
> > > wp review: http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=398
> > > o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr Athina Karatzogianni
> > Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
> > The University of Hull
> > United Kingdom
> > HU6 7RX
> >
> > Check out Athina's work:
> >
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyberconflict-Routledge-Research-Information-Technology/dp/0415396840/
> >
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Resistance-Conflict-Contemporary-World/dp/0415452988/
> >
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyber-conflict-Politics-Contemporary-Security-Studies/dp/0415459702/
> >
> > http://vectors.usc.edu/thoughtmesh/publish/135.php
> >
> > Press interviews:
> >
> > France:http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-924253,0.html
> >
> > http://www.20minutes.fr/article/180599/Monde-La-Chine-a-soif-d-informations.php
> > Greece:http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,id=78490200
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
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> http://barcampbank.org
> http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://extinctionlevelevent.com
>
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>
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