[p2p-research] [P2P Foundation] From Citizendium To Eduzendium

[Michel Bauwens]

On Feb 4, 2008 12:40 PM, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:

> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>
> Michel,
>
> It may take me several passes to work through your text below.
>
> Let me begin with your definition of peer production,
> even though I remain a little troubled by a nagging
> sense that some essential element of equality is
> missing from the mix.


Hi Jon,

thanks for that. I do not use the concept of equality, but of
equipotentiality, see here http://p2pfoundation.net/Equipotentiality for a
definition, basically, people volunteer those aspects of themselves that
they  judge of use to the project, and nobody stops them from contributing

>
>
> | Peer production has three aspects:
> | 1) voluntary contributions;
> | 2) participatory processes;
> | 3) commons oriented output.
>
> You have stated your opinion that Wikipedia exemplifies
> or exhibits the characters of 1 and 3, lacking only 2.
>
> There are several questions that I would have to ask at the outset:
>
> A. Is peer production like "fire production", where missing any side
>   of the "fire triangle" -- fuel, heat, oxygen -- breaks the chain
>   of necessary causes?  Or does one get partial credit for 2/3?


I would tend to say, you  get partial  credit; so  in this context, I would
say that Wikipedia is a dysfunctional model of peer governance (I do think
it is actually still very productive in terms of producing useful services,
and I think the millions of users would agree)

>
>
> B. What is the output?  What is the product of ultimate interest?
>   Is it the content of documents and files, the content of minds,
>   or is it the conditional general resolution of people to act in
>   certain ways, in short, beliefs?


in this context, a universal encyclopedia accessible everywhere for free, to
which, theoretically, everyone can contribute

>
>
> C. What does it say about the level of voluntary contribution
>   when there is a very high level of involuntary exclusion?


Yes, that is the problematic which may render various process dysfunctional
to various degrees, and a key issue is, when do we hit a treshold ...

This is a very difficult issue,  free software is still pretty much  a male,
probably 'western' affair, but that is indeed involuntary, and various
women's groups are working to change that practice and the culture that
engenders the practice

In Wikipedia I would say that the politicization of the collective choice
process, in the hands of deletionist and less than capable editors, is what
makes contributions an increasingly high treshold affair which leads to
exclusion; in this case, choosing for deletionism was a conscious decision
by this group; and you can probably not say that it is involuntary,
therefore, it is a much more serious offense against the ethic of
participation

Michel

>
>
> Sufficient unto the day ...
>
> Jon Awbrey
>
> Michel Bauwen wrote:
> >
> > Very clear reply ....
> >
> > though I'm still unsatisfied, and the reason is of course, that,
> > despite the failing of enacting values in the participatory process,
> > it still has 2 of the 3 functions of peer production,
> >
> > let's say that for me peer production is an objective mode that
> > potentially expresses an 'espoused ideal', and to different degrees,
> > it will have discrepancies with how these ideals are espoused.
> >
> > The other thing though, is how to establish a kind of cutting off point,
> > when it really becomes something else.
> >
> > Take Russia, at what point did it become something altogether different
> > than the originally espoused ideals of socialism?  How real where the
> > original soviets? how significant was it that competing interpretations
> > where suppressed from the very start; and what did it really become when
> > stalinism was fully consolidated as a new system: was it state
> socialism,
> > state capitalism ?? extremely difficult questions
> >
> > and here we are at the very beginning of peer production,
> > witnessing a degradation ... at what point does it really
> > turn into something altogether different??
> >
> > So my question to you is:
> >
> > what then, has it become?
> >
> > If not peer production and governance, you would then have
> > to explain to me how to 'explain away the input and output
> > feature, as being also part of another system? and then
> > explain that other system, which in my eyes, is not
> > a market, nor a command and control system ...
> >
> > So my problem is: 1) to see it as a degeneration of peer production
> > and governance, but still exemplying this new mode of production;
> > and we can then discuss the various degrees of degeneration and
> > perhaps indicate cut-off points (by analogy, when did the perhaps
> > original council system become a top down but different system,
> > only retaining public property, but embedding it in a new extremely
> > totalitarian and unequal hierarchy system);
> >
> > 2) to see it as something different than peer production, yet another
> mode?
> >
> > Please explain how you see this,
> >
> > Michel
>
> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
> mwb: http://www.mywikibiz.com/Directory:Jon_Awbrey
> mathweb: http://www.mathweb.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey
> getwiki: http://www.getwiki.net/-UserTalk:Jon_Awbrey
> p2p wiki: http://www.p2pfoundation.net/User:JonAwbrey
> zhongwen wp: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey
> ontolog: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?JonAwbrey
> http://www.altheim.com/ceryle/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JonAwbrey
> wp review: http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=398
> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>
>


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