[p2p-research] [P2P Foundation] From Citizendium To Eduzendium

Mon Feb 4 05:35:51 CET 2008

Very clear reply ....

though I'm still unsatisfied, and the reason is of course, that, despite the
failing of enacting values in the participatory process, it still has 2 of
the 3 functions of peer production,

let's say that for me peer production is an objective mode that potentially
expresses an 'espoused ideal', and to different degrees, it will have
discrepancies with how these ideals are espoused.

The other thing though, is how to establish a kind of cutting off point,
when it really becomes something else.

Take Russia, at what point did it become something altogether different than
the originally espoused ideals of socialism? How real where the original
soviets? how significant was it that competing interpretations where
suppressed from the very start; and what did it really become when stalinism
was fully consolidated as a new system: was it state socialism, state
capitalism ?? extremely difficult questions

and here we are at the very beginning of peer production, witnessing a
degradation .... at what point does it really turn into something altogether
different??

So my question to you is:

what then, has it become?

If not peer production and governance,  you would then have to explain to me
how to 'explain away the input and output feature, as being also part of
another system? and then explain that other system, which in my eyes, is not
a market, nor a command and control system ...

So my problem is: 1) to see it as a degeneration of peer production and
governance, but still exemplying this new mode of production; and we can
then discuss the various degrees of degeneration and perhaps indicate
cut-off points (by analogy, when did the perhaps original council system
become a top down but different system, only retaining public property, but
embedding it in a new extremely totalitarian and unequal hierarchy system);

2) to see it as something different than peer production, yet another mode?

Please explain how you see this,

Michel

On Feb 4, 2008 11:14 AM, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:

> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>
> P2P Foundation wrote:
> >
> > There is a new comment on the post "From Citizendium to Eduzendium"
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/from-citizendium-to-eduzendium/2008/01/29
> >
> > Author : Michel Bauwens
> > Comment:
> > Hi Jon,
> >
> > I wonder then, if what you are putting into question
> > is not the very process of peer production itself, i.e.
> > the volontary contributions, the non-credentialism, the
> > a posteriori selection through collective choice systems?
> > Or are you just rejecting it in the case of producing
> > encyclopedias?
> >
> > what then is the alternative?
> >
> > My own view is that producing based on voluntary contributions is sound,
> > a major social innovation bringing many benefits, but that it poses the
> > challenge of selecting for excellence, and that this is the area we have
> > to work on. But I do not question the fundamental innovation of
> Wikipedia
> > of creating an encyclopedia through voluntary contributions, and making
> it
> > universally available, and having a participatory process of
> decision-making
> > (which in this case, seems flawed as it does not select for excellence
> in
> > a satisfactory manner)
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > See all comments on this post here:
> >
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/from-citizendium-to-eduzendium/2008/01/29#comments
> >
> > To manage your subscriptions or to block all notifications from this
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>
> Michel,
>
> I haven't been questioning the validity the peer ideal,
> so far as I understand your understanding of it, but I
> do begin to be surprised that you think Wikipedia has
> much if anything to do with it.
>
> If I seek to explain the divergence of perceptions here,
> my first hypothesis would probably be that we have different
> levels of experience with the actual workings of Wikipedia itself.
>
> I see in all of us a strong desire to believe in certain types
> of social organization, in particular, a learning community that
> is dedicated to distributing the sum of human knowledge as widely
> as possible.
>
> There was a time when I imagined that Wikipedia might have been founded
> for just that purpose, a time when I imagined that the rules of its order
> might have been reasonably well-suited to achieving that end.
>
> Increasing familiarity with the realities of Wikipedia
> has taught me that neither imagining has substance.
>
> In our discussions at The Wikipedia Review, I have often
> referred to the distinction that Argyris and Schön made
> between ''espoused values'' and ''enacted values''.
> I am sure that everyone recognizes the distinction
> under one name or another.
>
> But it's critical to note that not every organization that espouses
> certain ideals is really determined to enact those ideals, whether
> this discrepancy occurs through deliberate deception, "bad faith"
> self-deception, or merely through incompetence.
>
> Whatever the case, it is not really necessary for us to figure out
> whether a leader is a fool or a liar on order for us to decide that
> we do not want to follow that leader any further.
>
> Jon Awbrey
>
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