[p2p-research] peer governance and democracy, request to Ned

Sun Feb 3 08:13:26 CET 2008

Hi Ned,

Thanks for your reply, I have no 'answer' to this, but will use it to think
about the issue more.

My take is a little different in that, instead of thinking of (organized)
networks in general (by analogy thinking about capitalism in general), I'm
interested into those specific networks that <are> participatory (to x
degree) (by analogy: thinking about the labour movement's reaction to
capitalism), so for me "peer governance" is a given in that environment, and
it has a number of features that make it 'post-democratic', yet, it doesn't
always scale or evolve well.

About gaming governance, you are problably familiar with
http://p2pfoundation.net/Organization_for_Transformative_Works

Michel

On Feb 3, 2008 11:35 AM, Ned Rossiter <ned at nedrossiter.org> wrote:

> hi Michel, thanks for this.
>
> As I note in my response to Daren's review, another challenge for
> network governance is scale. And for massive projects/platforms like
> wikipedia et al (and, let's face it, much of what the net tends to
> do), there are always going to be those dysfunctional dimensions that
> you refer to vis-a-vis platform owners vs. users.  I don't think
> those tensions can ever be 'solved'.  But users can harass owners.
> This worked to an extent with ICANN, facebook, etc.  What the history
> of the net has shown again and again is that when enough users get
> fed up they move on.  And that's where of course developers/
> programmers are so important.
>
> So what happens when people with an interest in governance don't have
> the skills/time/interest to be programmers? Well, I guess that's
> where they/we either develop basic skills and/or engage in the type
> of lobbying with owners. In the case of the latter, a
> representational structure creeps in and consequently structures the
> mode of communication. And as you note, frustrations very quickly
> arise.  It's no wonder that the net is so often presupposed as
> inherently 'democratic' because of the way so many communicative
> relations online reproduce the structural dynamics of 'democracy'.
> But most thinking of net democracy still assumes a form of democracy
> that reproduces the tropes of liberal democracy and the state form
> (e.g. the residue of the citizen-subject is carried over to the net,
> which I think is a big mistake).
>
> The very existence of owners/sysops indicates the non-participatory
> (or at least closed circle) dimension of networks. There is
> frequently very little communication/participation between admins and
> users.  And most are fine with this relation. Who wants to clear our
> spam every day on a mailing list for example, or attend to the
> numerous admin requests to process postings from non-subscribers
> (which this list still has a strangely high amount of)?
>
> The other obvious thing to note is that the culture of governance
> varies considerably across widely adopted applications. Geert Lovink
> documents this well in his analysis of mailing list cultures. This
> points to the fact that a universal model of network governance will
> never exist.
>
> Personally, I'd be interested to read about how free labour in mmog's
> might be thought of in terms of governance, and how such relations
> and modes of production might hold the potential for political
> organization.  And I'm interested in anthropologies on the governance
> of small-scale projects - partly because such work can enable an
> immanent relation and thus analysis of the practice of building
> networks & concepts (i.e. network governance, in other words).
>
> Another reason analyses of network governance are important is
> because they reveal the limits or borders of networks. The conflicts
> that arise within and across networks helps us understand the 'the
> political' of networks and their geocultural dimensions.
>
> best
> Ned
>
> On 2 Feb 2008, at 21:40, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> > Hi Ned,
> >
> > I saw a review of your book and particularly this quote, see below.
> >
> > As you perhaps know, I have recently paid attention to problems of
> > peer governance, which is I think very similar to your concept of
> > the governance of organized networks, and I feel I can subscribe to
> > what you say there. I have been mentioning the issues with
> > wikipedia, digg, and soon, the amazon reviewing process.
> >
> > They all share the problems that the participatory processes have
> > serious dysfunctions, and that the platform owners lack a certain
> > legitimacy to tackle them, hence a natural inclination to perhaps
> > think that formal democratic procedures may be of use, as already
> > applied with success in the apache community etc...
> >
> > I would love to have your opinion on this, and then to publish it
> > in our blog as well.
> >
> > reference to review http://rccs.usfca.edu/bookinfo.asp?
> > ReviewID=535&BookID=388
> >
> > quote:
> >
> > In Part I, Rossiter investigates the challenge for democracy in
> > organized networks. Representative democracy is generally assumed
> > to be a failed institution in this book, but its emphasis on
> > vertical, hierarchical structuring, even with a careful
> > consideration of multi-stakeholderism, is considered to be
> > especially ineffective for the horizontal, distributive capacities
> > of networks. As Rossiter puts it frankly: "It is time to abandon
> > the illusion that the myths of representational democracy might
> > somehow be transferred and realized within networked settings. That
> > is not going to happen" (95). In the call to rethink
> > representational democracy, the author hopes that organized
> > networks, which include perhaps virtual and informal social
> > movement organizations, will "make a strategic turn and begin to
> > scale up their operations in ways that would situate them within
> > the formal/centralized [organizational] quadrant, but in such a
> > manner that retains their informal, distributed and tactical
> > capacities" (75). Refreshing in this book is the argument that the
> > so-called open character of organized networks ought to attempt to
> > match up with power-wielding networked organizations to achieve
> > anything. In this sense, Rossiter is a realist, pragmatic in his
> > hope for intervention and change for a better world. This, I
> > believe, is Organized Networks' unique contribution to theory: a
> > middle way can be had between radically decentered movements on the
> > Web and centralized organizational regimes which hold all the power
> > in our world. To achieve this meta-collaboration -- or meta-
> > confrontation, depending on how one looks at it -- the focus must
> > be on formation rather than form, on "relational processes not
> > representational procedures" (13).
> >
> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at http://
> > blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/
> > index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499;
> > interview at http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-
> > world-to-come.html
> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P: http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?
> > docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >
> > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/
> > mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN, http://
> > www.shiftn.com/
>
>

-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/
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