[p2p-research] Towards a P2P Thermoeconomic Theory

Wed Dec 24 14:07:30 CET 2008

http://p2pfoundation.net/Thermoeconomics

created this preliminary version on the wiki as well;

merry xmas!!

michel

On 12/24/08, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very interested!
>
> Please do send me the paper.
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:11 PM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Marc
>> thanks for the interesting snippet
>> I published an article that discusses thermodynamics in relation to
>> digital ecosystems
>> I am sorry that it is locked, but some of you may acces ieee via their
>> academic accounts,
>> let me kno if you  are interested, and i ll send you my working copy
>>
>>
>> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4635217&isnumber=4635078
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:32 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Per Michel's request for implications of thermoeconomics in the context
>> of
>> > P2P social theory:
>> >
>> > (This is a very rough slice of a much larger future blog post)
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> > Premise:
>> >
>> > We can come up with a morally optimal model of society with the only
>> > constraints being our own conscience and ideas, but if we do not look at
>> the
>> > observed laws of nature (and particularly the laws of thermodynamics)
>> that
>> > constrain any model that involves physical resources then the model will
>> run
>> > aground sooner or later.
>> >
>> > This does not make the social model any less relevant than the physical
>> > model. They are both equally important to understand, and they can be
>> made
>> > to work together in harmony.
>> >
>> > Dialog:
>> >
>> > I'll start with a useful definition of thermodynamics:
>> >
>> > Thermodynamics is a branch of physics which deals with the energy and
>> work
>> > of a system. Thermodynamics deals only with the *large scale response*
>> of a
>> > system which we can observe and measure in experiments.
>> >
>> > 1st Law (also related: conservation of energy, conservation of mass,
>> > conservation of momentum):
>> >
>> > "Within a given domain, the amount of energy remains constant and energy
>> is
>> > neither created nor destroyed. Energy can be converted from one form to
>> > another (potential energy can be converted to kinetic energy) but the
>> total
>> > energy within the domain remains fixed."
>> >
>> > 2nd Law (as a follow up to the 1st law):
>> >
>> > "We can imagine thermodynamic processes which conserve energy but which
>> > never occur in nature. For example, if we bring a hot object into
>> contact
>> > with a cold object, we observe that the hot object cools down and the
>> cold
>> > object heats up until an equilibrium is reached. The transfer of heat
>> goes
>> > from the hot object to the cold object.
>> >
>> > We can imagine a system, however, in which the heat is instead
>> transferred
>> > from the cold object to the hot object, and such a system *does not
>> violate*
>> > the *first law* of thermodynamics. The cold object gets colder and the
>> hot
>> > object gets hotter, but energy is conserved. Obviously we don't
>> encounter
>> > such a system in nature and to explain this and similar observations,
>> > thermodynamicists proposed a second law of thermodynamics. Clasius,
>> Kelvin,
>> > and Carnot proposed various forms of the second law to describe the
>> > particular physics problem that each was studying.
>> >
>> > The description of the second law stated here was taken from Halliday
>> and
>> > Resnick's textbook, "Physics". It begins with the definition of a new
>> state
>> > variable called entropy. Entropy has a variety of physical
>> interpretations,
>> > including the statistical disorder of the system (very relevant to
>> > thermoeconomic information processing), dispersal of energy, etc, but
>> for
>> > our purposes, however entropy may be defined (in different
>> interpretations),
>> > let us consider entropy to be just another property of the system, like
>> (not
>> > as) temparature, with whatever interpretation you want to use.
>> >
>> > What the second law states, is that for a given physical process, the
>> > combined entropy of the system and the environment remains a constant if
>> the
>> > process can be reversed.
>> >
>> > An example of a reversible process is *ideally* forcing a flow through a
>> > constricted pipe. "Ideal" means no boundary layer losses. As the flow
>> moves
>> > through the constriction, the pressure, temperature and velocity change,
>> but
>> > these variables return to their original values downstream of the
>> > constriction. The state of the gas returns to its original conditions
>> and
>> > the change of entropy of the system is zero. Engineers call such a
>> process
>> > an isentropic. Isentropic means constant entropy.
>> >
>> > The second law states that if the physical process is irreversible, the
>> > combined entropy of the system and the environment must increase. The
>> final
>> > entropy must be greater than the initial entropy for an irreversible
>> > process.
>> >
>> > An example of an irreversible process is the problem discussed in the
>> second
>> > paragraph. A hot object is put in contact with a cold object.
>> Eventually,
>> > they both achieve the same equilibrium temperature. If we then separate
>> the
>> > objects they remain at the equilibrium temperature and do not naturally
>> > return to their original temperatures. The process of bringing them to
>> the
>> > same temperature is irreversible.
>> >
>> > When it comes to bits and bytes some of the the physical constraints
>> that
>> > follow from the first and second laws of thermodynamics are:
>> >
>> > Hardware/Physical Domain:
>> > 1. The continuous cost of energy (whatever it is, e.g. near zero) used
>> for
>> > powering the hardware (including the cost of maintaining and evolving
>> the
>> > capability of the energy generation capacity)
>> >
>> > 2. The continuous cost of energy used for the maintenance of the
>> hardware at
>> > every point, from desktop to network core, mesh infrastructure or the
>> > hardware landscape, including the communication channels. This includes
>> > energy used in manufacturing of new hardware or replacement parts.
>> >
>> > Information Processing/Virtual Domain:
>> > 3. The continuous cost of energy for evolving the capacity, scale and
>> > quality of the communication/transportation/connectivity
>> >
>> > 4. The continuous cost of energy to power our "human bandwidth for
>> > information process," i.e. the energy we need to power our brains/bodies
>> ...
>> >
>> > There is also the 0th, 3rd and 4th laws of thermodyanmics which complete
>> the
>> > picture, but it's xmas guys and I have 20 minutes to shower and get to
>> the
>> > mall before someone here shoot me.
>> >
>> > Anyway, while having an engineer's understanding of thermodynamics I
>> would
>> > like to invite a rational dialog that would help to bridge the gap
>> between
>> > social and physical theory, which is a process of reconciling two
>> different
>> > axiomatic deductive systems :-)
>> >
>> > Seems like everything is fractal, with problems expressing themselves in
>> > other problems with lower and lower resolution (more wiggle room) as we
>> go
>> > down the chain and more resolution (less wiggle room) as we go up the
>> chain,
>> > but "reality" operates at all levels in the chain. We just have to
>> recognize
>> > the common patterns across all our different deductive systems because
>> its
>> > those common patterns that will allow us to build a common picture.
>> >
>> > Merry xmas/Happy Holidays :)
>> >
>> > Marc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
>> > <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Thanks Marc for your reply.
>> >>
>> >> Hmm, I have been experimenting with such "usership" and "sharist"
>> >> approaches for the last years. Some platforms, such as hospitality
>> >> platforms, have huge potential
>> >> ( couchsurfing - cs, hospitalityclub - hc, bewelcome - bw)
>> >>
>> >> I have been involved with cs and hc and their development models turned
>> >> out to become closed,
>> >> which prompted the development of bw by hc and cs volunteers :
>> >> http://bewelcome.org
>> >>
>> >> It is realist to believe that there is enough of a critical mass to
>> build
>> >> up a viable economy with "sharist" types of intentional currencies.
>> >>
>> >> You do not need to have everyone on board. Currencies can be vectors
>> for
>> >> the emergence of real social networks, and can be combined with other
>> real
>> >> social networks sharing common intentions, such as a number of
>> individuals
>> >> relating their lifestyles to hospitality networks.
>> >>
>> >> We do not need to coerce everyone into the systems we develop.
>> >> But offer the solutions, and the best designs, for the hundreds of
>> >> thousands, or perhaps the millions of individuals that are ready to
>> start
>> >> experimenting with them.
>> >>
>> >> My view.
>> >>
>> >> Writing from a cafe - limited internet access for the moment,
>> >>
>> >> Merry Christmas if you celebrate it,
>> >>
>> >> Greetings
>> >>
>> >> Dante
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 6:51 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Dante,
>> >>>
>> >>> I really like what you're saying.
>> >>>
>> >>> If I was to support any alternate view on the economy besides the
>> model
>> >>> I'm working with it would be yours because I know it's "all we ever
>> want to
>> >>> do but cannot because of realism"
>> >>>
>> >>> In other words, I think it's great that you think this way and I think
>> >>> you can get people to follow the message if you keep it succinct as
>> powerful
>> >>> and not get too philosophical with it (going over people's heads)
>> >>>
>> >>> But for me, I'm looking at a technically radical and philosophically
>> >>> "centrist" solution, not too far to the left or too far to the right.
>> The
>> >>> radical aspect of it is combining energy and economy (which will
>> happen
>> >>> sooner or later)  and the philosophical part of it is that it trains
>> people
>> >>> to think different, from "winner takes all" to "winner shares all" ...
>> I
>> >>> like moving in steps not one giant leap. The next step would be to
>> motivate
>> >>> the sharing of land.. i.e. the material basis for the economy, but I
>> haven't
>> >>> thought about it yet.
>> >>>
>> >>> Good enough?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
>> >>> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> >From my current perspective,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - ownership, especially accumulation of ownership,
>> >>>> most often reduces potential for "development" :
>> >>>> the potential to deal with greater complexity to the benefit of the
>> >>>> greater self,
>> >>>> with a integral awareness.
>> >>>> For me, a monetary information system based on ownership addiction
>> >>>> enslaves transactions into the aim of ownership monopoly.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - usership, and the architecture/modalities of usership processing,
>> >>>> can optimize access to transactions by liberating them from
>> constraint
>> >>>> of the promotion of competitive coercive increase of ownership
>> >>>> concentration. in other words, liberate it from the aim of a coercive
>> >>>> paradigm.
>> >>>> usership architectures, according to their modalities, have the
>> >>>> potential to open up access to transactions embodying , instead of
>> coercion,
>> >>>> the intention of sustainable processes of cocreative learning
>> paradigms.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---------
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As to be able to facilitate meaningful transactions: meaningful
>> >>>> transactions being understood and visualized as a creative process
>> from a
>> >>>> integral/holistic perspective.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A process dimensions engine can allow the visualization of such
>> >>>> development economics: the creation and the opening up of the use of
>> new
>> >>>> process objects through 1"increased trust",2 action/love, 3
>> non-coercive
>> >>>> contemplation, and 0 inspiration connecting  such dimensions - and at
>> a
>> >>>> "shared" meta level ( relation between two meta levels / awareness
>> and brane
>> >>>> position at higher level of abstraction then meta level ) :
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1 - transcendence ( increase of the overcoming of limitations to
>> greater
>> >>>> trust : meta-"increased trust" : "increased trust of increased trust"
>> :
>> >>>> increased potential to open up channels that increase the potential
>> to open
>> >>>> up channels) ,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 2 - care ( meta love )
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 3 - faith ( meta non-coercive contemplation )
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 0 : inspiration ( point enabling movement of experience along
>> positions
>> >>>> of meta process dimensions )
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ///////////////////
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > p2presearch mailing list
>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

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