[p2p-research] Towards a P2P Thermoeconomic Theory

[marc fawzi]

Very interested!

Please do send me the paper.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:11 PM, <paola.dimaio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Marc
> thanks for the interesting snippet
> I published an article that discusses thermodynamics in relation to
> digital ecosystems
> I am sorry that it is locked, but some of you may acces ieee via their
> academic accounts,
> let me kno if you  are interested, and i ll send you my working copy
>
>
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4635217&isnumber=4635078
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:32 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Per Michel's request for implications of thermoeconomics in the context
> of
> > P2P social theory:
> >
> > (This is a very rough slice of a much larger future blog post)
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Premise:
> >
> > We can come up with a morally optimal model of society with the only
> > constraints being our own conscience and ideas, but if we do not look at
> the
> > observed laws of nature (and particularly the laws of thermodynamics)
> that
> > constrain any model that involves physical resources then the model will
> run
> > aground sooner or later.
> >
> > This does not make the social model any less relevant than the physical
> > model. They are both equally important to understand, and they can be
> made
> > to work together in harmony.
> >
> > Dialog:
> >
> > I'll start with a useful definition of thermodynamics:
> >
> > Thermodynamics is a branch of physics which deals with the energy and
> work
> > of a system. Thermodynamics deals only with the *large scale response* of
> a
> > system which we can observe and measure in experiments.
> >
> > 1st Law (also related: conservation of energy, conservation of mass,
> > conservation of momentum):
> >
> > "Within a given domain, the amount of energy remains constant and energy
> is
> > neither created nor destroyed. Energy can be converted from one form to
> > another (potential energy can be converted to kinetic energy) but the
> total
> > energy within the domain remains fixed."
> >
> > 2nd Law (as a follow up to the 1st law):
> >
> > "We can imagine thermodynamic processes which conserve energy but which
> > never occur in nature. For example, if we bring a hot object into contact
> > with a cold object, we observe that the hot object cools down and the
> cold
> > object heats up until an equilibrium is reached. The transfer of heat
> goes
> > from the hot object to the cold object.
> >
> > We can imagine a system, however, in which the heat is instead
> transferred
> > from the cold object to the hot object, and such a system *does not
> violate*
> > the *first law* of thermodynamics. The cold object gets colder and the
> hot
> > object gets hotter, but energy is conserved. Obviously we don't encounter
> > such a system in nature and to explain this and similar observations,
> > thermodynamicists proposed a second law of thermodynamics. Clasius,
> Kelvin,
> > and Carnot proposed various forms of the second law to describe the
> > particular physics problem that each was studying.
> >
> > The description of the second law stated here was taken from Halliday and
> > Resnick's textbook, "Physics". It begins with the definition of a new
> state
> > variable called entropy. Entropy has a variety of physical
> interpretations,
> > including the statistical disorder of the system (very relevant to
> > thermoeconomic information processing), dispersal of energy, etc, but for
> > our purposes, however entropy may be defined (in different
> interpretations),
> > let us consider entropy to be just another property of the system, like
> (not
> > as) temparature, with whatever interpretation you want to use.
> >
> > What the second law states, is that for a given physical process, the
> > combined entropy of the system and the environment remains a constant if
> the
> > process can be reversed.
> >
> > An example of a reversible process is *ideally* forcing a flow through a
> > constricted pipe. "Ideal" means no boundary layer losses. As the flow
> moves
> > through the constriction, the pressure, temperature and velocity change,
> but
> > these variables return to their original values downstream of the
> > constriction. The state of the gas returns to its original conditions and
> > the change of entropy of the system is zero. Engineers call such a
> process
> > an isentropic. Isentropic means constant entropy.
> >
> > The second law states that if the physical process is irreversible, the
> > combined entropy of the system and the environment must increase. The
> final
> > entropy must be greater than the initial entropy for an irreversible
> > process.
> >
> > An example of an irreversible process is the problem discussed in the
> second
> > paragraph. A hot object is put in contact with a cold object. Eventually,
> > they both achieve the same equilibrium temperature. If we then separate
> the
> > objects they remain at the equilibrium temperature and do not naturally
> > return to their original temperatures. The process of bringing them to
> the
> > same temperature is irreversible.
> >
> > When it comes to bits and bytes some of the the physical constraints that
> > follow from the first and second laws of thermodynamics are:
> >
> > Hardware/Physical Domain:
> > 1. The continuous cost of energy (whatever it is, e.g. near zero) used
> for
> > powering the hardware (including the cost of maintaining and evolving the
> > capability of the energy generation capacity)
> >
> > 2. The continuous cost of energy used for the maintenance of the hardware
> at
> > every point, from desktop to network core, mesh infrastructure or the
> > hardware landscape, including the communication channels. This includes
> > energy used in manufacturing of new hardware or replacement parts.
> >
> > Information Processing/Virtual Domain:
> > 3. The continuous cost of energy for evolving the capacity, scale and
> > quality of the communication/transportation/connectivity
> >
> > 4. The continuous cost of energy to power our "human bandwidth for
> > information process," i.e. the energy we need to power our brains/bodies
> ...
> >
> > There is also the 0th, 3rd and 4th laws of thermodyanmics which complete
> the
> > picture, but it's xmas guys and I have 20 minutes to shower and get to
> the
> > mall before someone here shoot me.
> >
> > Anyway, while having an engineer's understanding of thermodynamics I
> would
> > like to invite a rational dialog that would help to bridge the gap
> between
> > social and physical theory, which is a process of reconciling two
> different
> > axiomatic deductive systems :-)
> >
> > Seems like everything is fractal, with problems expressing themselves in
> > other problems with lower and lower resolution (more wiggle room) as we
> go
> > down the chain and more resolution (less wiggle room) as we go up the
> chain,
> > but "reality" operates at all levels in the chain. We just have to
> recognize
> > the common patterns across all our different deductive systems because
> its
> > those common patterns that will allow us to build a common picture.
> >
> > Merry xmas/Happy Holidays :)
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> > <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Marc for your reply.
> >>
> >> Hmm, I have been experimenting with such "usership" and "sharist"
> >> approaches for the last years. Some platforms, such as hospitality
> >> platforms, have huge potential
> >> ( couchsurfing - cs, hospitalityclub - hc, bewelcome - bw)
> >>
> >> I have been involved with cs and hc and their development models turned
> >> out to become closed,
> >> which prompted the development of bw by hc and cs volunteers :
> >> http://bewelcome.org
> >>
> >> It is realist to believe that there is enough of a critical mass to
> build
> >> up a viable economy with "sharist" types of intentional currencies.
> >>
> >> You do not need to have everyone on board. Currencies can be vectors for
> >> the emergence of real social networks, and can be combined with other
> real
> >> social networks sharing common intentions, such as a number of
> individuals
> >> relating their lifestyles to hospitality networks.
> >>
> >> We do not need to coerce everyone into the systems we develop.
> >> But offer the solutions, and the best designs, for the hundreds of
> >> thousands, or perhaps the millions of individuals that are ready to
> start
> >> experimenting with them.
> >>
> >> My view.
> >>
> >> Writing from a cafe - limited internet access for the moment,
> >>
> >> Merry Christmas if you celebrate it,
> >>
> >> Greetings
> >>
> >> Dante
> >>
> >> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 6:51 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dante,
> >>>
> >>> I really like what you're saying.
> >>>
> >>> If I was to support any alternate view on the economy besides the model
> >>> I'm working with it would be yours because I know it's "all we ever
> want to
> >>> do but cannot because of realism"
> >>>
> >>> In other words, I think it's great that you think this way and I think
> >>> you can get people to follow the message if you keep it succinct as
> powerful
> >>> and not get too philosophical with it (going over people's heads)
> >>>
> >>> But for me, I'm looking at a technically radical and philosophically
> >>> "centrist" solution, not too far to the left or too far to the right.
> The
> >>> radical aspect of it is combining energy and economy (which will happen
> >>> sooner or later)  and the philosophical part of it is that it trains
> people
> >>> to think different, from "winner takes all" to "winner shares all" ...
> I
> >>> like moving in steps not one giant leap. The next step would be to
> motivate
> >>> the sharing of land.. i.e. the material basis for the economy, but I
> haven't
> >>> thought about it yet.
> >>>
> >>> Good enough?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> >>> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> >From my current perspective,
> >>>>
> >>>> - ownership, especially accumulation of ownership,
> >>>> most often reduces potential for "development" :
> >>>> the potential to deal with greater complexity to the benefit of the
> >>>> greater self,
> >>>> with a integral awareness.
> >>>> For me, a monetary information system based on ownership addiction
> >>>> enslaves transactions into the aim of ownership monopoly.
> >>>>
> >>>> - usership, and the architecture/modalities of usership processing,
> >>>> can optimize access to transactions by liberating them from constraint
> >>>> of the promotion of competitive coercive increase of ownership
> >>>> concentration. in other words, liberate it from the aim of a coercive
> >>>> paradigm.
> >>>> usership architectures, according to their modalities, have the
> >>>> potential to open up access to transactions embodying , instead of
> coercion,
> >>>> the intention of sustainable processes of cocreative learning
> paradigms.
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------
> >>>>
> >>>> As to be able to facilitate meaningful transactions: meaningful
> >>>> transactions being understood and visualized as a creative process
> from a
> >>>> integral/holistic perspective.
> >>>>
> >>>> A process dimensions engine can allow the visualization of such
> >>>> development economics: the creation and the opening up of the use of
> new
> >>>> process objects through 1"increased trust",2 action/love, 3
> non-coercive
> >>>> contemplation, and 0 inspiration connecting  such dimensions - and at
> a
> >>>> "shared" meta level ( relation between two meta levels / awareness and
> brane
> >>>> position at higher level of abstraction then meta level ) :
> >>>>
> >>>> 1 - transcendence ( increase of the overcoming of limitations to
> greater
> >>>> trust : meta-"increased trust" : "increased trust of increased trust"
> :
> >>>> increased potential to open up channels that increase the potential to
> open
> >>>> up channels) ,
> >>>>
> >>>> 2 - care ( meta love )
> >>>>
> >>>> 3 - faith ( meta non-coercive contemplation )
> >>>>
> >>>> 0 : inspiration ( point enabling movement of experience along
> positions
> >>>> of meta process dimensions )
> >>>>
> >>>> ///////////////////
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
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