[p2p-research] Discussing the rhizomatic state

Tue Aug 12 11:55:04 CEST 2008

Hi All,

This is my primary research interest, so I thought I would offer a
couple of sentences here. The hierarchical versus networked, or
vertebrate versus cellular or arborescent versus rhizomatic, are all
different. Not black and white as we conceptualize them for reasons of
theoretical convenience. In practice, as we discover there are
necessary multimodal hierarchies some overt and some covert in
existence to attempt order into chaotic systems. It is the right
question to ask which of these orders benefits the movements or (why
not the state, if one is interested in the boring stuff!), and whether
content, message, ideology, organization, mobilization, recruitment,
decisionmaking, affect which shade of 'order' fits which 'cause' if
you like.

On the second question, obviously there are enormous differences
between a sociopolitical or politico-economic/socio-cultural movement
or network which is more dependent on active desire rather than
reactive/reactionary and violent, fixed predatory identities, which is
what we are witnessing with al-qaeda and various Non state
ethnoreligious actors in low-intensity conflicts. In terms of the
hierarchy-network question as well there are differences as al qaeda
is a network, one might argue quasi-rhizomatic, in the sense that it
is based on kinship, and identity is predatory, while the ideals
remain reactionary and adhere to the ethnos and religion (not as in
nationality, but as in Muslim peoples, the global ummah). Only the
network style is adopted for practical reasons to survive and move to
recruiting a new generation. In contrast the anti-globalization
movement or dissidents within countries in sociopolitical
cyberconflicts are not only networked for practical reasons they see
and believe this 'philosophy' of peer production or new age ideologies
as close as to being a coherent political statement in itself.

Lastly, the role of the state is to keep up with the one and fight the
other (or the other way around depending where you stand ideologically
; )

Hope this helps

Athina

Dr Athina Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
The University of Hull
United Kingdom
HU6 7RX
phone: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790

Check out Athina's work:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyberconflict-Routledge-Research-Information-Technology/dp/0415396840/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Resistance-Conflict-Contemporary-World/dp/0415452988/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyber-conflict-Politics-Contemporary-Security-Studies/dp/0415459702/
http://vectors.usc.edu/thoughtmesh/publish/135.php

http://www.socialissuescollection.com/

Press interviews:

France:http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-924253,0.html
http://www.20minutes.fr/article/180599/Monde-La-Chine-a-soif-d-informations.php
Greece:http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,id=78490200
Brazil:http://jbonline.terra.com.br/editorias/internacional/papel/2007/11/04/internacional20071104008.html
http://jbonline.terra.com.br/editorias/internacional/papel/2007/05/20/internacional20070520003.html
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Michel Bauwens
<michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/from-the-nation-state-via-the-market-state-to-the-rhizomatic-state/2008/08/13
>
> http://www.jeffvail.net/thenewmap.pdf ;
> http://www.jeffvail.net/atheoryofpower.pdf,
> http://www.jeffvail.net/2005/09/defending-pala-rhizome-as-mode-of.html
>
> Dear Jeff,
>
> I discuss your essay on the rhizomatic state tomorrow on the blog, see
> above.
>
> In my discussion, I make three comments that you may want to respond to,
> here they are:
>
> I do have some general remarks though, that make the approach insufficient
> in my own understanding of the topic.
>
> 1) does it make sense to counterpose so radically the distributed and
> hierarchical formats? For example, Manuel De Landa insists that meshworks
> and hierarchies always mix. I also miss the in my mind clear distinction
> between centralization (hierarchy), decentralisation (division of power in
> competing groups and institutions) and distribution (bottom up dynamics of
> free agents). If this is true, then we have to start formulating the issue
> in a different way, as in: which form of state or hierarchy is beneficial
> for peer to peer dynamics
>
> 2) Jeff's text seems to focus exclusively on what I would call the dark side
> of peer to peer, i.e. primary social groups, often authoritarian in
> character, who use peer to peer tactics and formats to win a struggle and
> organize themselves, but within a reactionary mindset. They exist and exert
> a powerful pressure, but what about the effect of positive social practices
> and forms of organization, who mix peer to peer formats with a peer to peer
> intent? Surely the resulting state form of both groups and endeavours would
> be sensible different?
>
> 3) by doing this, it then focuses on state forms such as those of the
> hezbollah, al qaeda, etc… which are of course real and influential, but give
> a format to the rhizomatic state that may not at all be acceptable to the
> social forces that I'm observing. So I feel this other aspect is
> insufficiently theorized. I have formulated, following Cosmo Orsi's lead,
> the concept of the Partner State to indicate the state form that would
> supersede the market state, and not follow its collapse, as indicated by the
> examples cited by Jeff Vail.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> alternatives.
>
> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>
> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
>
> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
>
> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
> http://www.shiftn.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

--