[p2p-research] p2p resource pooling

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sun Nov 25 03:19:40 CET 2007 

I agree with Ned that we have to keep the legal stuff to a minimum, and
solve the situation as we go.

Perhaps sam can look in the christian needs sharing groups in the US, this
is very similar to what we propose and they have been doing it for years.

We are simply 'giving' money to be each other, and at least in europe, that
is a free and legal activity (perhaps within certain bounds that I'm not
aware of)

Michel

On Nov 25, 2007 3:16 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Nov 24, 2007 1:59 PM, Ned Rossiter <ned at nedrossiter.org> wrote:
>
> > it's great to see these developments racing ahead, but I think
> > there's something tragic about the funding legal fees in the first
> > instance. That's one of the reasons I'm not an advocate of CC - all
> > rounds eventually lead to the lawyer's bank account.
>
>
>
> Ned, you raise a good point. I think that while we are "beat testing" we
> can just have an informal agreement amongst ourselves, while we explore the
> simplest way to organize this.
>
> I will tell you that I do participate in a money pooling experiment that
> has absolutely no formalization or legal vetting: http://scommunitywiki.org/CommunityWikibank
> but that group has a very high amount of co-evolved trust over time.
>
> Personally, I trust everyone in this group who might be interested to
> participate npooling resources.
>
> Ned, I have to agree with you. There must be some way for us to legally
> protect participants without having to line the pockets of lawyers. I
> actually believe that I/we could rsearch the legalities ourselves, perhaps
> with assis
>
> >
> >
> > I like the idea of a LET's style in-kind contribution of skills/
> > capacities, and this is where the p2p network needs to expand to get
> > someone with some legal savvy on board. Andrew Kenyon at University
> > of Melbourne may be one such person (he's also familiar with US legal
> > systems, but if the US is going to be the primary legal code - which
> > makes some sense if p2p is going to register as a legal entity in the
> > US - then perhaps a friendly lawyer in the states is a better move. I
> > can contact Andrew if that's a good idea.
> >
>
> Please do, I'd really appreciate it. I will also try to connect with folks
> who I know locally, that have legal knowledge. We may not need to
> incorporate in US, we actually should able to use existing non-profit
> foundation status of P2P foundation, which is incorporated in Netherlands,
> and this would save having to create a whole new organization, since Michel
> already went through the steps of creating p2p foundation as legal entity.
> Maybe we'll just explore trying to employ that existing organization, to
> save time and money (plus maybe Dutch law is more liberal when it comes to
> money pooling and "investing club"-syle arrangements like this?)
>
>
> >
> > Also: I think an 'identity' and culture needs to be established in
> > order for people to have some kind of affective relation to this
> > network that translates into financial donations, subscriptions etc.
> > At least that's how I feel. Perhaps the p2p foundation provides that
> > identity, and  there are some on this list that have strong
> > connections with p2p foundation. but it's hardly universal, at least
> > as far as this network is concerned.
>
>
> The basic structure that we've employed is that exiting members invite new
> members. So, there is a personal level of connection there. It doesn't have
> to grow very big, very fast in my opinion, and in fact I'd rather that it
> didn't grow extremely fast right away. I'd rather actually keep a cap on the
> max number of people (to around maybe 150 at the most). And I'd rather cap
> off the max amount of donationed money  per person, and cap off the max
> amount of requested money per person.
>
> I think one of the dynamics that can help build culture, and trust, is the
> ability of everyone involved to help decide what portions of the money
> and/or pooled resources are applied towards.
>
> One other dynamic that I really, really hope will emerge from collective
> decision making is the dynamic of increasing the indvidual carrying capacity
> of each person involved. By that, I mean increasing the ability for people
> to create "positive externalities" for themselvess and others by being
> involved in deciding where and how money resources are applied.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > So I wonder if more work needs to be done to build up the network -
> > to see if it has any legs - before all the legal work and financial
> > expenditure is done.
>
>
> Well, I know that even a small network, 12-20 people would be extremely
> useful and could exist without legal formalities, so long as there is mutual
> trust among members. So, maybe that can be "phase one" of this? Maybe we can
> try to keep it simple, and let complexity of processes emerge from our group
> over time through discussion and based on real needs, and if the need for
> expensive legal work arises, we can address it at the time. This has worked
> well for close to 2 years in the CommunityWikiBank example I referred to
> earlier. I think if we keep things fairly simple, we can create a legal
> agreement amongst ouselves, and work with that while our group is small, and
> try to look for in-kind donation of legal expertise as complexity of project
> rises/need arises.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > I saw a recent example of the legal and funding frameworks being done
> > with an alternative network in Seoul. They had heaps of money and no
> > ideas.  In other words, they didn't know how to spend the money.  I
> > think there's a danger of going down a similar path with this
> > network.
>
>
> Hmmm... I suppose the danger could exist, but we can also learn from what
> they are doing. I think Michel's idea of investing part of it helps to open
> up avenues for what to do with it. Plus, there are quite a few applictions
> that it could be put towards within the network, for sure. I have tons, and
> TONS of ideas, and I know that I am not alone :-) (Michel alone probably has
> enough ideas to keep us going for 20+ years)
>
>
>
> > But maybe I'm seeing this the wrong way - perhaps this
> > network is something that straps on to various existing projects.
> > After the nottingham meeting, though, I'm still unclear what those
> > are and what inter-connections exist.
>
>
> No, your caution is good, your feedback is useful, IMO. I think a
> collective network like this can only really become what the people who make
> up the network turn it into. I have an idea that it would be a collective
> "stepping stone" infrastructure to move projects forward, while also helping
> to aggreagate collective knowledge about projects (conversing about what
> projects should have pooled resources applied to them helps to engage
> collective intelligence and apply it towards projects and applciations).
> Also I have the fantasy that it woill bring people's unused surplus
> resources to the "surface", and I hope to try and enable that. but, maybe
> other things will emerge as well (like the did in CommunityWikiBank
> experiments mentioned earlier)? I really liek Michel's suggestion that we
> invest, and I think the whole process of pooling, and pushing some of the
> pool towards investing in projects that will generate a return is a pattern
> with tremendous possibilities.
>
> I remember your questions about clarifying reltionships from the workshop.
> I think Michel's idea of keeping access invitation-by-existing-members-only
> helps to address the honest connections.
>
> Ned, I now that I "know" you a little better, would you like me to invite
> you into the beta-system I've set up (I am still working on it, so some
> functions can easily be improved, and your feedback would be most welcome)
> the software also has "clarification" of user's relationships with each
> other (I have some exampel relationshi designations, but there is room for
> many more). I think it will help the whole system be self-sustaining, by
> keeping it confined to people who actually know and trust each other to a
> certain degree, plus limiting size.
>
> Sam
>
>
> >
> > best
> > Ned
> >
> > On 24 Nov 2007, at 18:38, Samuel Rose wrote:
> >
> > > yes, I was thining that one of the first things we can do as a beta
> > > group is to pool money to fund paying a lawyer to draft the needed
> > > legal framework, perhaps. Under the umbrella of p2pfoundation
> > > (perhaps as a non-profit LLC), but making sure we are covered under
> > > the agreements people make when they join. (This legal agreement
> > > could then be a template for future groups who want to adopt our
> > > processes, too).
> > >
> > > So, we could discuss amongst ourselves, and co-draft our agreed-
> > > upon rules, then put them in front of a lawyer, to make sure they
> > > comply with international law, and to make sure that users agree
> > > ahead of time not to sue or go after one another, and to make the
> > > non-profit LLC the holder of the assetts.
> > >
> > > On Nov 24, 2007 1:19 PM, Paul B. Hartzog < paulbhartzog at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > Someone with appropriate legal savvy needs to make sure that the
> > > financial stuff is all taken care of appropriately so that there is no
> >
> > > danger of nasty arguments down the road. :-)
> > >
> > > -p
> > >
> > > On Nov 24, 2007 1:13 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Good point, Paul. Will give you that access in a couple of
> > > minutes...
> > > >
> > > > Eventually, we would also maybe make a seperate paypal account,
> > > that could
> > > > be like donate at p2pfoundation.net , that Michel, plus project
> > > admins, plus
> > > > whomever is working with the money has access to, so that it is
> > > seperate.
> > > >
> > > > beyond that, we could save processing fees by eventually setting
> > > up a bank
> > > > account, and using bank's apparatus/payment gateway, as it would
> > > > theoretically be more secure, and  have flat fee (or free with
> > > some credit
> > > > union business accounts)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 24, 2007 11:37 AM, Paul B. Hartzog <
> > > paulbhartzog at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Sam
> > > > > Although I can not likely do development in the foreseeable
> > > future, it
> > > > > would be good to have at least one other administrator than
> > > yourself.
> > > > > I am willing to be that backup person.
> > > > >
> > > > > -p
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 21, 2007 7:08 PM, Samuel Rose < samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Thanks for the list, Ned (and Inst. for NC)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wanted to let anyone interested know that I am working
> > > on p2p
> > > > resource
> > > > > > pool site right now:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/resourcepool/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The basic idea that Michel conveyed to me, and the operating
> > > model is:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) people contribute $/EURO 5 or 10 per month to the common pool
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) 40% of the money is given back to contributing individuals
> > > in a
> > > > monthly
> > > > > > pool of money
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) 40% is available for for-benefit activities. People
> > > describe their
> > > > > > activities, and if x number of members say 'ok', the money is
> > > given to
> > > > them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4) 15% of the pool is invested in some venture that can
> > > generate a
> > > > return
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5) 5% is given to the administration of the project, i.e. the
> > > pool of
> > > > > > contributing organization"
> > > > > > So, I am starting to set up the mechanisms to enable automatic
> > > > recurring/and
> > > > > > one-time acceptance of donations, and community decision
> > > making for the
> > > > > > investing/for-benefit donations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Proposals could list what the money would be spent for, and
> > > people on
> > > > this
> > > > > > site could offer services in place of money, thereby possibly
> > > putting
> > > > some
> > > > > > of the needed money back into the donation pool.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Plus, people could list surplus non-money resources
> > > somewhere, or needed
> > > > > > resources. And, people could just discuss what they need, and
> > > what they
> > > > have
> > > > > > in general, and what they are doing. (Sometimes people don't
> > > realize
> > > > what
> > > > > > they need, or what others have lying around gathering dust,
> > > until they
> > > > start
> > > > > > talking to each other...)
> > > > > > The site is, and will always be invite-only, and is still in
> > > development
> > > > at
> > > > > > this time. As soon as the basic functions are working
> > > correctly, I'll be
> > > > > > sure to invite anyone interested. The URL for the site may
> > > eventually
> > > > > > change. Anyone with Drupal knowledge who wants access now and
> > > can help
> > > > > > develop the site is welcome. Let me know and I'll send you an
> > > invite
> > > > right
> > > > > > away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sam
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 21, 2007 6:45 PM, Ned Rossiter < ned at nedrossiter.org >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > hi all, great to meet all of you who could make it to the
> > > p2p meeting
> > > > > > > in nottingham.  and for those who couldn't make it -
> > > greetings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > >   http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/
> > > FrontPage
> > > > > >   http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > >  http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > > > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > > > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > > p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > > > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > > > >
> > > > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > > > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sam Rose
> > > > Social Synergy
> > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > >  http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > >
> > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/
> > > FrontPage
> > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > >  http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > >   http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > >
> > > > Information Filtering:
> > > >  http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > >  http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > >
> > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
> > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > AIM: Str9960
> > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > skype: samuelrose
> > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > >
> > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > >
> > > Information Filtering:
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://extinctionlevelevent.com
>
> Information Filtering:
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>


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