[p2p-research] p2p resource pooling

Samuel Rose samuel.rose at gmail.com
Sat Nov 24 21:20:31 CET 2007 

PS. that was meant to be http://communitywiki.org/CommunityWikiBank i the
message quoted below. Sorry about that...

On Nov 24, 2007 3:16 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Nov 24, 2007 1:59 PM, Ned Rossiter <ned at nedrossiter.org> wrote:
>
> > it's great to see these developments racing ahead, but I think
> > there's something tragic about the funding legal fees in the first
> > instance. That's one of the reasons I'm not an advocate of CC - all
> > rounds eventually lead to the lawyer's bank account.
>
>
>
> Ned, you raise a good point. I think that while we are "beat testing" we
> can just have an informal agreement amongst ourselves, while we explore the
> simplest way to organize this.
>
> I will tell you that I do participate in a money pooling experiment that
> has absolutely no formalization or legal vetting: http://scommunitywiki.org/CommunityWikibank
> but that group has a very high amount of co-evolved trust over time.
>
> Personally, I trust everyone in this group who might be interested to
> participate npooling resources.
>
> Ned, I have to agree with you. There must be some way for us to legally
> protect participants without having to line the pockets of lawyers. I
> actually believe that I/we could rsearch the legalities ourselves, perhaps
> with assis
>
> >
> >
> > I like the idea of a LET's style in-kind contribution of skills/
> > capacities, and this is where the p2p network needs to expand to get
> > someone with some legal savvy on board. Andrew Kenyon at University
> > of Melbourne may be one such person (he's also familiar with US legal
> > systems, but if the US is going to be the primary legal code - which
> > makes some sense if p2p is going to register as a legal entity in the
> > US - then perhaps a friendly lawyer in the states is a better move. I
> > can contact Andrew if that's a good idea.
> >
>
> Please do, I'd really appreciate it. I will also try to connect with folks
> who I know locally, that have legal knowledge. We may not need to
> incorporate in US, we actually should able to use existing non-profit
> foundation status of P2P foundation, which is incorporated in Netherlands,
> and this would save having to create a whole new organization, since Michel
> already went through the steps of creating p2p foundation as legal entity.
> Maybe we'll just explore trying to employ that existing organization, to
> save time and money (plus maybe Dutch law is more liberal when it comes to
> money pooling and "investing club"-syle arrangements like this?)
>
>
> >
> > Also: I think an 'identity' and culture needs to be established in
> > order for people to have some kind of affective relation to this
> > network that translates into financial donations, subscriptions etc.
> > At least that's how I feel. Perhaps the p2p foundation provides that
> > identity, and  there are some on this list that have strong
> > connections with p2p foundation. but it's hardly universal, at least
> > as far as this network is concerned.
>
>
> The basic structure that we've employed is that exiting members invite new
> members. So, there is a personal level of connection there. It doesn't have
> to grow very big, very fast in my opinion, and in fact I'd rather that it
> didn't grow extremely fast right away. I'd rather actually keep a cap on the
> max number of people (to around maybe 150 at the most). And I'd rather cap
> off the max amount of donationed money  per person, and cap off the max
> amount of requested money per person.
>
> I think one of the dynamics that can help build culture, and trust, is the
> ability of everyone involved to help decide what portions of the money
> and/or pooled resources are applied towards.
>
> One other dynamic that I really, really hope will emerge from collective
> decision making is the dynamic of increasing the indvidual carrying capacity
> of each person involved. By that, I mean increasing the ability for people
> to create "positive externalities" for themselvess and others by being
> involved in deciding where and how money resources are applied.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > So I wonder if more work needs to be done to build up the network -
> > to see if it has any legs - before all the legal work and financial
> > expenditure is done.
>
>
> Well, I know that even a small network, 12-20 people would be extremely
> useful and could exist without legal formalities, so long as there is mutual
> trust among members. So, maybe that can be "phase one" of this? Maybe we can
> try to keep it simple, and let complexity of processes emerge from our group
> over time through discussion and based on real needs, and if the need for
> expensive legal work arises, we can address it at the time. This has worked
> well for close to 2 years in the CommunityWikiBank example I referred to
> earlier. I think if we keep things fairly simple, we can create a legal
> agreement amongst ouselves, and work with that while our group is small, and
> try to look for in-kind donation of legal expertise as complexity of project
> rises/need arises.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > I saw a recent example of the legal and funding frameworks being done
> > with an alternative network in Seoul. They had heaps of money and no
> > ideas.  In other words, they didn't know how to spend the money.  I
> > think there's a danger of going down a similar path with this
> > network.
>
>
> Hmmm... I suppose the danger could exist, but we can also learn from what
> they are doing. I think Michel's idea of investing part of it helps to open
> up avenues for what to do with it. Plus, there are quite a few applictions
> that it could be put towards within the network, for sure. I have tons, and
> TONS of ideas, and I know that I am not alone :-) (Michel alone probably has
> enough ideas to keep us going for 20+ years)
>
>
>
> > But maybe I'm seeing this the wrong way - perhaps this
> > network is something that straps on to various existing projects.
> > After the nottingham meeting, though, I'm still unclear what those
> > are and what inter-connections exist.
>
>
> No, your caution is good, your feedback is useful, IMO. I think a
> collective network like this can only really become what the people who make
> up the network turn it into. I have an idea that it would be a collective
> "stepping stone" infrastructure to move projects forward, while also helping
> to aggreagate collective knowledge about projects (conversing about what
> projects should have pooled resources applied to them helps to engage
> collective intelligence and apply it towards projects and applciations).
> Also I have the fantasy that it woill bring people's unused surplus
> resources to the "surface", and I hope to try and enable that. but, maybe
> other things will emerge as well (like the did in CommunityWikiBank
> experiments mentioned earlier)? I really liek Michel's suggestion that we
> invest, and I think the whole process of pooling, and pushing some of the
> pool towards investing in projects that will generate a return is a pattern
> with tremendous possibilities.
>
> I remember your questions about clarifying reltionships from the workshop.
> I think Michel's idea of keeping access invitation-by-existing-members-only
> helps to address the honest connections.
>
> Ned, I now that I "know" you a little better, would you like me to invite
> you into the beta-system I've set up (I am still working on it, so some
> functions can easily be improved, and your feedback would be most welcome)
> the software also has "clarification" of user's relationships with each
> other (I have some exampel relationshi designations, but there is room for
> many more). I think it will help the whole system be self-sustaining, by
> keeping it confined to people who actually know and trust each other to a
> certain degree, plus limiting size.
>
> Sam
>
>
> >
> > best
> > Ned
> >
> > On 24 Nov 2007, at 18:38, Samuel Rose wrote:
> >
> > > yes, I was thining that one of the first things we can do as a beta
> > > group is to pool money to fund paying a lawyer to draft the needed
> > > legal framework, perhaps. Under the umbrella of p2pfoundation
> > > (perhaps as a non-profit LLC), but making sure we are covered under
> > > the agreements people make when they join. (This legal agreement
> > > could then be a template for future groups who want to adopt our
> > > processes, too).
> > >
> > > So, we could discuss amongst ourselves, and co-draft our agreed-
> > > upon rules, then put them in front of a lawyer, to make sure they
> > > comply with international law, and to make sure that users agree
> > > ahead of time not to sue or go after one another, and to make the
> > > non-profit LLC the holder of the assetts.
> > >
> > > On Nov 24, 2007 1:19 PM, Paul B. Hartzog < paulbhartzog at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > Someone with appropriate legal savvy needs to make sure that the
> > > financial stuff is all taken care of appropriately so that there is no
> >
> > > danger of nasty arguments down the road. :-)
> > >
> > > -p
> > >
> > > On Nov 24, 2007 1:13 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Good point, Paul. Will give you that access in a couple of
> > > minutes...
> > > >
> > > > Eventually, we would also maybe make a seperate paypal account,
> > > that could
> > > > be like donate at p2pfoundation.net , that Michel, plus project
> > > admins, plus
> > > > whomever is working with the money has access to, so that it is
> > > seperate.
> > > >
> > > > beyond that, we could save processing fees by eventually setting
> > > up a bank
> > > > account, and using bank's apparatus/payment gateway, as it would
> > > > theoretically be more secure, and  have flat fee (or free with
> > > some credit
> > > > union business accounts)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 24, 2007 11:37 AM, Paul B. Hartzog <
> > > paulbhartzog at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Sam
> > > > > Although I can not likely do development in the foreseeable
> > > future, it
> > > > > would be good to have at least one other administrator than
> > > yourself.
> > > > > I am willing to be that backup person.
> > > > >
> > > > > -p
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 21, 2007 7:08 PM, Samuel Rose < samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Thanks for the list, Ned (and Inst. for NC)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wanted to let anyone interested know that I am working
> > > on p2p
> > > > resource
> > > > > > pool site right now:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/resourcepool/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The basic idea that Michel conveyed to me, and the operating
> > > model is:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) people contribute $/EURO 5 or 10 per month to the common pool
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) 40% of the money is given back to contributing individuals
> > > in a
> > > > monthly
> > > > > > pool of money
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) 40% is available for for-benefit activities. People
> > > describe their
> > > > > > activities, and if x number of members say 'ok', the money is
> > > given to
> > > > them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4) 15% of the pool is invested in some venture that can
> > > generate a
> > > > return
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5) 5% is given to the administration of the project, i.e. the
> > > pool of
> > > > > > contributing organization"
> > > > > > So, I am starting to set up the mechanisms to enable automatic
> > > > recurring/and
> > > > > > one-time acceptance of donations, and community decision
> > > making for the
> > > > > > investing/for-benefit donations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Proposals could list what the money would be spent for, and
> > > people on
> > > > this
> > > > > > site could offer services in place of money, thereby possibly
> > > putting
> > > > some
> > > > > > of the needed money back into the donation pool.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Plus, people could list surplus non-money resources
> > > somewhere, or needed
> > > > > > resources. And, people could just discuss what they need, and
> > > what they
> > > > have
> > > > > > in general, and what they are doing. (Sometimes people don't
> > > realize
> > > > what
> > > > > > they need, or what others have lying around gathering dust,
> > > until they
> > > > start
> > > > > > talking to each other...)
> > > > > > The site is, and will always be invite-only, and is still in
> > > development
> > > > at
> > > > > > this time. As soon as the basic functions are working
> > > correctly, I'll be
> > > > > > sure to invite anyone interested. The URL for the site may
> > > eventually
> > > > > > change. Anyone with Drupal knowledge who wants access now and
> > > can help
> > > > > > develop the site is welcome. Let me know and I'll send you an
> > > invite
> > > > right
> > > > > > away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sam
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 21, 2007 6:45 PM, Ned Rossiter < ned at nedrossiter.org >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > hi all, great to meet all of you who could make it to the
> > > p2p meeting
> > > > > > > in nottingham.  and for those who couldn't make it -
> > > greetings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > >   http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/
> > > FrontPage
> > > > > >   http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > >  http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > > > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > > > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > > p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > > > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > > > >
> > > > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > > > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sam Rose
> > > > Social Synergy
> > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > >  http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > >
> > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/
> > > FrontPage
> > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > >  http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > >   http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > >
> > > > Information Filtering:
> > > >  http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > >  http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > >
> > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
> > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > AIM: Str9960
> > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > skype: samuelrose
> > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > >
> > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > >
> > > Information Filtering:
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://extinctionlevelevent.com
>
> Information Filtering:
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>



-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Cel: +1-517-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com

Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
http://www.cooperationcommons.com
http://barcampbank.org
http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
http://communitywiki.org
http://extinctionlevelevent.com

Information Filtering:
http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
http://del.icio.us/srose
http://twitter.com/SamRose
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