[p2p-research] disagreement by deletion/addition

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Fri Dec 7 16:04:58 CET 2007 

ok, then, it's a deal,

Michel

On Dec 7, 2007 9:30 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 7, 2007 8:54 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Sam, it is fine to add that extension, can you discuss the details
> > with James Burke?
> >
> > Perhaps, we can starting in January, divide up the work of
> > cross-linking, each in his own wiki, per batches of five?
>
>
>
> Sounds like a good idea. I think this cross-linking will be worth while.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 7, 2007 8:28 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Michel,
> > >
> > > Sure, I can manually link to wikis on my sever that are relevant.
> > > Also, I can link to content elsewhere when relevant, like
> > > metacollab.net, panarchy site, communitywiki, meatball wiki etc
> > >
> > > Would also like to suggest a technological solution that myself and
> > > others have found quite useful, that we can deploy right now on
> > > p2pfoundation wiki, if you agree. Suggestion is to create a system of
> > > Interwiki links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Interwiki_links(made possible with this extension
> > > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Special_page_to_work_with_the_interwiki_table)
> > > You can maintain these links on a page in the wiki, and give wiki users
> > > permission to add to it.
> > >
> > > Interwiki links in MediaWiki can make it quite a bit easier to create
> > > quick links to other wikis, or even non-wiki sources. You would just type,
> > > for instance "obmwikihive:OpenBusinessModels" onto a page, and the media
> > > wiki software would make a link to that exact page.  Just a suggestion, that
> > > I have found quite time saving and useful, personally.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sam
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 6, 2007 5:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Sam,
> > > >
> > > > I am a little wary of 'declaring' future projects before they are
> > > > done.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps we could simply start with some manual project that
> > > > cross-links the most important articles "manually" ??
> > > >
> > > > For example, we could start with the business category and the
> > > > following key concepts in my wiki, linking it to similar items in your
> > > > wikihive familiy?
> > > >
> > > > I compiled the following preparatory list:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  [ edit<http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Business?title=Category:Business&action=edit&section=11>
> > > > ]
> > > > I. From consumption to produsage
> > > >
> > > >    1. Produserism <http://p2pfoundation.net/Produserism> ; Mass
> > > >    Amateurization <http://p2pfoundation.net/Mass_Amateurization> ;
> > > >    Pro-Am Revolution <http://p2pfoundation.net/Pro-Am_Revolution>
> > > >    2. Consumer-Generated Media<http://p2pfoundation.net/Consumer-Generated_Media> ;
> > > >    Customer-centric Brands<http://p2pfoundation.net/Customer-centric_Brands> ;
> > > >    Consumer-Fortified Media<http://p2pfoundation.net/Consumer-Fortified_Media>
> > > >    3. User-Generated Ecosystem<http://p2pfoundation.net/User-Generated_Ecosystem> ;
> > > >    User-Capitalized Networks<http://p2pfoundation.net/User-Capitalized_Networks>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *I.a: The new partnership economy*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Peer Production <http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Production>;
> > > >    Direct Economy <http://p2pfoundation.net/Direct_Economy>; Production
> > > >    without Manufacturer<http://p2pfoundation.net/Production_without_Manufacturer>;
> > > >    Circulation of the Common<http://p2pfoundation.net/Circulation_of_the_Common>
> > > >    2. Co-Creation <http://p2pfoundation.net/Co-Creation> ;
> > > >    Co-Design <http://p2pfoundation.net/Co-Design> ; Co-production<http://p2pfoundation.net/Co-production> ;
> > > >    Citizen Product Design<http://p2pfoundation.net/Citizen_Product_Design> ;
> > > >    Crowdsourced Design<http://p2pfoundation.net/Crowdsourced_Design>
> > > >    3. Crowdsourcing <http://p2pfoundation.net/Crowdsourcing> ;
> > > >    Crowdfunding <http://p2pfoundation.net/Crowdfunding> ;
> > > >    Crowdpricing <http://p2pfoundation.net/Crowdpricing>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *I.b: Affinity Markets and Social Commerce*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Affinity Investing<http://p2pfoundation.net/Affinity_Investing> ; Affinity
> > > >    Markets <http://p2pfoundation.net/Affinity_Markets> ; Recognition
> > > >    Markets <http://p2pfoundation.net/Recognition_Markets>
> > > >    2. Community Supported Manufacturing<http://p2pfoundation.net/Community_Supported_Manufacturing> ;
> > > >    Community Trading Software<http://p2pfoundation.net/Community_Trading_Software> ;
> > > >    Community Wealth Building<http://p2pfoundation.net/Community_Wealth_Building>
> > > >    3. Long Tail <http://p2pfoundation.net/Long_Tail> ; Social
> > > >    Commerce <http://p2pfoundation.net/Social_Commerce>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *1.c : New marketing practices*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Group Buying <http://p2pfoundation.net/Group_Buying> ; Group
> > > >    Purchasing <http://p2pfoundation.net/Group_Purchasing>
> > > >    2. User-created Advertizing<http://p2pfoundation.net/User-created_Advertizing> ;
> > > >    User-driven Advertizing<http://p2pfoundation.net/User-driven_Advertizing> ;
> > > >    Citizen Marketers <http://p2pfoundation.net/Citizen_Marketers> ;
> > > >    Crowdsourced Advertising<http://p2pfoundation.net/Crowdsourced_Advertising>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *I.d.1 New Economic Logics*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Attention Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/Attention_Economy> ;
> > > >    Economics of Attention
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Economics_of_Attention>; Intention
> > > >    Economy <http://p2pfoundation.net/Intention_Economy> ; Pull
> > > >    Economies <http://p2pfoundation.net/Pull_Economies>
> > > >    2. Conversation Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/Conversation_Economy> ;
> > > >    Markets as Conversations
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Markets_as_Conversations>
> > > >    3. Ethical Economy <http://p2pfoundation.net/Ethical_Economy> ;
> > > >    Bottom of the Pyramid<http://p2pfoundation.net/Bottom_of_the_Pyramid> ;
> > > >    Blended Value <http://p2pfoundation.net/Blended_Value>; Good
> > > >    Capital <http://p2pfoundation.net/Good_Capital>, Inclusive
> > > >    Capitalism <http://p2pfoundation.net/Inclusive_Capitalism>
> > > >    4. Fair Trade <http://p2pfoundation.net/Fair_Trade> ; Social
> > > >    Entrepreneurship
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Social_Entrepreneurship>
> > > >    5. Markets without Capitalism<http://p2pfoundation.net/Markets_without_Capitalism> ;
> > > >    Natural Capitalism<http://p2pfoundation.net/Natural_Capitalism> ;
> > > >    Steady State Economy<http://p2pfoundation.net/Steady_State_Economy>
> > > >    6. Economics of Sharing<http://p2pfoundation.net/Economics_of_Sharing>;
> > > >    Altruistic Economics
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Altruistic_Economics> ; Cooperative
> > > >    Economics <http://p2pfoundation.net/Cooperative_Economics>, Collaboration
> > > >    Theory <http://p2pfoundation.net/Collaboration_Theory> , Collaborate
> > > >    to Compete <http://p2pfoundation.net/Collaborate_to_Compete>
> > > >    7. Quarternary Economics<http://p2pfoundation.net/Quarternary_Economics>;
> > > >    Adventure Economy <http://p2pfoundation.net/Adventure_Economy> ; Process
> > > >    Economy <http://p2pfoundation.net/Process_Economy>
> > > >
> > > > [ edit<http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Business?title=Category:Business&action=edit&section=12>
> > > > ]
> > > > II. New coopetitive practices
> > > >
> > > >    1. Asymmetric Competition<http://p2pfoundation.net/Asymmetric_Competition>;
> > > >    Edge Competencies <http://p2pfoundation.net/Edge_Competencies> ;
> > > >
> > > >    2. User-centered Innovation<http://p2pfoundation.net/User-centered_Innovation> ;
> > > >    User Innovation Theory<http://p2pfoundation.net/User_Innovation_Theory> ;
> > > >    Open Innovation <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Innovation> ; Diffuse
> > > >    Innovation <http://p2pfoundation.net/Diffuse_Innovation> ; Lead
> > > >    Users <http://p2pfoundation.net/Lead_Users>
> > > >    3. For Benefit <http://p2pfoundation.net/For_Benefit>; Benefit
> > > >    Sharing <http://p2pfoundation.net/Benefit_Sharing> ; Revenue
> > > >    Sharing <http://p2pfoundation.net/Revenue_Sharing> ; Rewards
> > > >    for Contributions<http://p2pfoundation.net/Rewards_for_Contributions> ;
> > > >    Crowding Out <http://p2pfoundation.net/Crowding_Out>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  [ edit<http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Business?title=Category:Business&action=edit&section=13>
> > > > ]
> > > > III New distributed infrastructures
> > > >
> > > >    1. Customer-Controlled Networks<http://p2pfoundation.net/Customer-Controlled_Networks> ;
> > > >    Customer-build network infrastructures<http://p2pfoundation.net/Customer-build_network_infrastructures>
> > > >    2. Co-Working Infrastructure<http://p2pfoundation.net/Co-Working_Infrastructure> ;
> > > >    Hacker Ethic <http://p2pfoundation.net/Hacker_Ethic>
> > > >    3. P2P Exchange Infrastructure Projects<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Exchange_Infrastructure_Projects> ;
> > > >    Peer to Peer Exchanges<http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_to_Peer_Exchanges>
> > > >    4. Credit Commons <http://p2pfoundation.net/Credit_Commons>, Mutual
> > > >    Credit <http://p2pfoundation.net/Mutual_Credit> , LETS<http://p2pfoundation.net/LETS>,
> > > >    Open Money <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Money> ; P2P Lending<http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Lending> ;
> > > >    Social Lending <http://p2pfoundation.net/Social_Lending>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *III.a Physical P2P Production*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Open Design <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Design> ; Open
> > > >    Peer to Peer Design
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Peer_to_Peer_Design>, Open
> > > >    Hardware <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Hardware> ; Free
> > > >    Hardware Design<http://p2pfoundation.net/Free_Hardware_Design>
> > > >    2. Desktop Manufacturing<http://p2pfoundation.net/Desktop_Manufacturing> ;
> > > >    Personal Fabricators
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Personal_Fabricators> ; Multiple-Purpose
> > > >    Production Technology<http://p2pfoundation.net/Multiple-Purpose_Production_Technology>
> > > >    3. Rapid Manufacturing<http://p2pfoundation.net/Rapid_Manufacturing> ;
> > > >    Rapid Prototyping <http://p2pfoundation.net/Rapid_Prototyping> ;
> > > >    Rapid Tooling <http://p2pfoundation.net/Rapid_Tooling>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  [ edit<http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Business?title=Category:Business&action=edit&section=14>
> > > > ]
> > > > IV. New institutional formats
> > > >
> > > >    1. Peer Property <http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Property> ;
> > > >    Commons <http://p2pfoundation.net/Commons>; Trusts<http://p2pfoundation.net/Trusts> ;
> > > >    Citizen Ownership <http://p2pfoundation.net/Citizen_Ownership>
> > > >    2. Open Business <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Business>; Open
> > > >    Capital <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Capital> ; Open Company
> > > >    Models <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Company_Models> ; Open
> > > >    Enterprise <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Enterprise>, Capital
> > > >    Commons Trusts
> > > >    <http://p2pfoundation.net/Capital_Commons_Trusts> ; Open Book
> > > >    Management <http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Book_Management>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *IV.a New business models*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Open Music Business Models<http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Music_Business_Models>;
> > > >    Open Film Business Models<http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Film_Business_Models>;
> > > >    Free Software Business Models<http://p2pfoundation.net/Free_Software_Business_Models>;
> > > >    Open Source Business Models<http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Business_Models> ;
> > > >    Open Source Commercialization<http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Commercialization>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *IV.b The new capitalism*
> > > >
> > > >    1. Hacker Class <http://p2pfoundation.net/Hacker_Class>, Netarchical
> > > >    Capitalism <http://p2pfoundation.net/Netarchical_Capitalism> ;
> > > >    P2P Capitalism <http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Capitalism> ; Cooperative
> > > >    Capitalism <http://p2pfoundation.net/Cooperative_Capitalism> ;
> > > >    Peer Production Entrepreneurs<http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Production_Entrepreneurs>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 7, 2007 3:31 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It also becoems ver useful when you can convince the wikis to link
> > > > > back.
> > > > >
> > > > > but, it can also encourage them to return the favor by starting
> > > > > the process yourself, I suppose :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > I would volunteer to take on some Categories
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, maybe we could edit http://p2pfoundation.net/WikiNode to
> > > > > declare that we will be making a "see also" section of links onour pages to
> > > > > thos sites, and the we can also update
> > > > > http://p2pfoundation.net/WikiNode to include all of the wikis we
> > > > > link to. And, then I can maybe convince my friend Mattis Manzel to help me
> > > > > go to those sites and convnce them to adopt the WikiNode convention.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am also very interested in a more automated way to do this
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 6, 2007 2:32 PM, Michel Bauwens < michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In the context of your recommendations, I would suggest:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  - allowing contributors to manually link to a set of similar
> > > > > > wiki's
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  - allowing users to generate a search on the various wiki's,
> > > > > > perhaps through a button: 'search for similar material' ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course I would welcome any volunteers who could work on
> > > > > > implementing such an addition,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michel
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Dec 7, 2007 2:23 AM, Samuel Rose < samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Michel,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > yes, I think the DbA design might be more useful for:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    1. highly "open" wiki communities, both Community over
> > > > > > >    content, and content over community. reason why: people are expecting a more
> > > > > > >    "open" attitude. DbA and "soft security"
> > > > > > >    http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SoftSecurity help enable
> > > > > > >    this and deal with complexity at the same time
> > > > > > >    2. Community over content wikis in particular (though
> > > > > > >    not always universally, again more towards the highly  "open")
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the case of p2pfoundation, which has a specific purpose
> > > > > > > among an invitation-basd workgroup, I don't think the "Wiki Hive"
> > > > > > > super-expansionist model would be so manageable, or useful for the goals of
> > > > > > > p2pfoundation wiki resource
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think in the case of linking, that it might be possible to:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    1. create and run scripts that link up with matching
> > > > > > >    entries at "sister sites"
> > > > > > >    2. follow up with manual linking as well
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also, we could convince other sites to adopt a "category"
> > > > > > > standard, where certain specific categories are agreed upon and applied to
> > > > > > > pages. So the page names can be Mnemonic, but the Categories can be an
> > > > > > > agreed upon taxonomy. Then, a script could be created to aggregate and link
> > > > > > > those categories, even from other wiki engines. This would take a bit of
> > > > > > > manual work, to add the categories, but many wikis already have Categories.
> > > > > > > There are better solutions, but they are hard to apply to existing wiki,
> > > > > > > sometimes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Dec 6, 2007 2:06 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> > > > > > > michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My concern is with complexity.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You already explained how there is a difference between
> > > > > > > > content and community oriented wiki's. The former, which you have chosen,
> > > > > > > > might be better for insiders, but seems less accessible to outsiders,
> > > > > > > > because of the more informal nature of the contributions, which assume lots
> > > > > > > > of contextual knowledge.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The other is, but I must admit I'm struggling with it as
> > > > > > > > well, is, as we strive for comprehensiveness, we then start scaling beyond
> > > > > > > > the optimal personal network effect, i.e. more becomes less.
> > > > > > > > See http://p2pfoundation.net/Personal_Network_Effect (this
> > > > > > > > applies to number of people, but just as much to number of entries I think)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If I had the choice, I would also like to interlink the
> > > > > > > > p2pfoundation.net wiki with some others, but I would leave
> > > > > > > > it to individual effort, to actually link entries, I would create the
> > > > > > > > possibility, but not create automaticity,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Michel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Dec 7, 2007 1:46 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What about when the nature of the way we publish on the
> > > > > > > > > internet changes? Michel has already talked about this in his response,
> > > > > > > > > which I received while typing up this one.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Basically, DbD tends to become more desirable for wiki
> > > > > > > > > communities that are gaining larger "audiences", larger collections of
> > > > > > > > > inbound and outbound links, and more usage/activity. When one (openly
> > > > > > > > > editable) wiki begins to build up lots of links and usage, some of the
> > > > > > > > > people invested in the wiki, and even new comers might decide they want to
> > > > > > > > > control the message through deletion, often giving the reason that they
> > > > > > > > > don't want to encourage certain patterns of usage by making it seem as if
> > > > > > > > > their existence is tolerated.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One of the paradigms we created with the WikiHive model (
> > > > > > > > > WikiHive <http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WikiHive> http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WikiHive
> > > > > > > > > – multiple installs of one wiki, working together)  is the
> > > > > > > > > ability for people to instantly add a new wiki, that is then connected
> > > > > > > > > automatically by links and recent changes to the "main" wiki. This is a
> > > > > > > > > decentralizing tool that is an attempt to make a more even playing field,
> > > > > > > > > and to make exploration of topics more faceted, and to take into account
> > > > > > > > > that there are many view points. Now, it is possible to create a whole new
> > > > > > > > > wiki, to explore from your viewpoint, yet still keep it networked and linked
> > > > > > > > > to the wikis that grew out of. This is less of a "forking", and more of a
> > > > > > > > > "faceting".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I host examples of this approach here:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/HiveChanges
> > > > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/HiveChanges
> > > > > > > > > http://eartwiki.org/cgi-bin/hive/HiveChanges
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > and the first version of this
> > > > > > > > > http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/RecentChanges
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This set up allows a person to simply tye the name of
> > > > > > > > > their wiki into a form, like this:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/Startup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This is based on http://oddmuse.org wiki engine (it is
> > > > > > > > > also currently possible to do the same thing with MoinMoin wiki engine, and
> > > > > > > > > some similar features http://prowiki.org). Some really
> > > > > > > > > interesting and useful features include:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >    - "sister site" links at the bottom of pages that
> > > > > > > > >    are "NearLinked"
> > > > > > > > >    - Combined recent changes among all wikis in wiki
> > > > > > > > >    hive
> > > > > > > > >    - ability to combine recent changes with other wiki
> > > > > > > > >    hives
> > > > > > > > >    - ability to near link to wikis that are based on
> > > > > > > > >    other wiki engines (like moinmoin)
> > > > > > > > >    - ability to create streams of output, and simple
> > > > > > > > >    input forms
> > > > > > > > >    - ability to transclude pages into other pages
> > > > > > > > >    - ability to turn "anchors" into "objects" that can
> > > > > > > > >    be linked to (making comments into useful content that is reference able)
> > > > > > > > >    - ability to create custom content style sheets,
> > > > > > > > >    some of which can be configures to create, for instance, paper authoring,
> > > > > > > > >    that prints referenced papers
> > > > > > > > >    http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/PaperWriting/RecentChanges
> > > > > > > > >    - Support for multiple languages and switching
> > > > > > > > >    languages on the same page
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > beyond all of that, this design pattern for wiki community
> > > > > > > > > encourages DbA over DbD
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > it is a new, decentralized way to scale-up wiki, that puts
> > > > > > > > > more control into the user's hands and encourages link and promoted
> > > > > > > > > "addition", over burying deletion. I call it "burying" because the wiki
> > > > > > > > > still holds a record int he case of most wiki engines if you delete content.
> > > > > > > > > But this still makes it more difficult to find, and is obscured from search
> > > > > > > > > engines, which understandably do not follow all of the available revisions).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We would love feedback on this additive,
> > > > > > > > > proliferation-based, and diversity-encouraging approach to wiki community
> > > > > > > > > building. Even if it is harsh criticism. We feel we have the basic structure
> > > > > > > > > in a very solid state, and we understand that the "user interface" and
> > > > > > > > > information architecture could be improved (both are openly editable by
> > > > > > > > > users).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Dec 6, 2007 12:31 PM, Paul B. Hartzog <
> > > > > > > > > paulbhartzog at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > conversation starter:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Deletionism, or Disagreement by Deletion
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > long time ago in my naive days
> > > > > > > > > > Sunir Shah and I got talking about what was good about
> > > > > > > > > > wikis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > one of the key things was:
> > > > > > > > > > 1) disagreement by deletion
> > > > > > > > > > vs.
> > > > > > > > > > 2) disagreement by addition
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DbD was the old-school political philosophy of exclusive
> > > > > > > > > > practice,
> > > > > > > > > > i.e. deciding who is "in" and who is "out"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DbA was the new-school of pluralization, pluralism, and
> > > > > > > > > > conversation,
> > > > > > > > > > i.e. including perspectival acknowledgement as part of
> > > > > > > > > > the process
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I actually used to lecture that this was a KEY reason
> > > > > > > > > > why wikis are
> > > > > > > > > > politically revolutionary, which is that by using DbA
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > 1) mesh with a multivocal world
> > > > > > > > > > 2) function on inclusion instead of fragmentation (echo
> > > > > > > > > > chamber)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now we see the "new" spaces, turning into "old" spaces
> > > > > > > > > > by adopting the same rules as the old.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Question:
> > > > > > > > > > Is this a historical inevitability.  Will new open
> > > > > > > > > > spaces that emerge,
> > > > > > > > > > ALWAYS become co-opted by the old rules systems?  Will
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > ALWAYS be forced (as they scale?) to adopt the old
> > > > > > > > > > rules?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > thoughts?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -p
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > > > > > > > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > > > > > > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > > > > > > > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > > > > > > > > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > > > > > > > > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > > > > > > > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > > > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > > > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > > > > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > > > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > > > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > > > > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > > > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > > > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > > > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > > > > > > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer
> > > > > > > > to peer alternatives.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> > > > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> > > > > > > > http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499;
> > > > > > > > interview at
> > > > > > > > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > > > > > > > BEST VIDEO ON P2P: http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> > > > > > > > http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by
> > > > > > > > http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to
> > > > > > peer alternatives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net ; Blog, at
> > > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499;
> > > > > > interview at http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> > > > > > http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> > > > > >
> > > > > > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> > > > > > http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sam Rose
> > > > > Social Synergy
> > > > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > > > AIM: Str9960
> > > > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > > > skype: samuelrose
> > > > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > > > >
> > > > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Information Filtering:
> > > > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > > > alternatives.
> > > >
> > > > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net ; Blog, at
> > > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499;
> > > > interview at http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > > >
> > > > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> > > > http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> > > >
> > > > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> > > > http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> > > >
> > > > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
> > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > AIM: Str9960
> > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > skype: samuelrose
> > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > >
> > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > >
> > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > >
> > > Information Filtering:
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net ; Blog, at
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
> > http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >
> > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> > http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://extinctionlevelevent.com
>
> Information Filtering:
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>



-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by
http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
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