[p2p-research] disagreement by deletion/addition

Thu Dec 6 20:32:15 CET 2007

In the context of your recommendations, I would suggest:

 - allowing contributors to manually link to a set of similar wiki's

 - allowing users to generate a search on the various wiki's, perhaps
through a button: 'search for similar material' ...

Of course I would welcome any volunteers who could work on implementing such
an addition,

Michel

On Dec 7, 2007 2:23 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Michel,
>
> yes, I think the DbA design might be more useful for:
>
>
>    1. highly "open" wiki communities, both Community over content, and
>    content over community. reason why: people are expecting a more "open"
>    attitude. DbA and "soft security"
>    http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SoftSecurity help enable this and
>    deal with complexity at the same time
>    2. Community over content wikis in particular (though not always
>    universally, again more towards the highly  "open")
>
> In the case of p2pfoundation, which has a specific purpose among an
> invitation-basd workgroup, I don't think the "Wiki Hive" super-expansionist
> model would be so manageable, or useful for the goals of p2pfoundation wiki
> resource
>
> I think in the case of linking, that it might be possible to:
>
>    1. create and run scripts that link up with matching entries at
>    "sister sites"
>    2. follow up with manual linking as well
>
> Also, we could convince other sites to adopt a "category" standard, where
> certain specific categories are agreed upon and applied to pages. So the
> page names can be Mnemonic, but the Categories can be an agreed upon
> taxonomy. Then, a script could be created to aggregate and link those
> categories, even from other wiki engines. This would take a bit of manual
> work, to add the categories, but many wikis already have Categories. There
> are better solutions, but they are hard to apply to existing wiki,
> sometimes.
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2007 2:06 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My concern is with complexity.
> >
> > You already explained how there is a difference between content and
> > community oriented wiki's. The former, which you have chosen, might be
> > better for insiders, but seems less accessible to outsiders, because of the
> > more informal nature of the contributions, which assume lots of contextual
> > knowledge.
> >
> > The other is, but I must admit I'm struggling with it as well, is, as we
> > strive for comprehensiveness, we then start scaling beyond the optimal
> > personal network effect, i.e. more becomes less. See
> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Personal_Network_Effect (this applies to number
> > of people, but just as much to number of entries I think)
> >
> > If I had the choice, I would also like to interlink the
> > p2pfoundation.net wiki with some others, but I would leave it to
> > individual effort, to actually link entries, I would create the possibility,
> > but not create automaticity,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> > On Dec 7, 2007 1:46 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > What about when the nature of the way we publish on the internet
> > > changes? Michel has already talked about this in his response, which I
> > > received while typing up this one.
> > >
> > > Basically, DbD tends to become more desirable for wiki communities
> > > that are gaining larger "audiences", larger collections of inbound and
> > > outbound links, and more usage/activity. When one (openly editable) wiki
> > > begins to build up lots of links and usage, some of the people invested in
> > > the wiki, and even new comers might decide they want to control the message
> > > through deletion, often giving the reason that they don't want to encourage
> > > certain patterns of usage by making it seem as if their existence is
> > > tolerated.
> > >
> > > One of the paradigms we created with the WikiHive model (WikiHive<http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WikiHive> http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WikiHive
> > > – multiple installs of one wiki, working together)  is the ability for
> > > people to instantly add a new wiki, that is then connected automatically by
> > > links and recent changes to the "main" wiki. This is a decentralizing tool
> > > that is an attempt to make a more even playing field, and to make
> > > exploration of topics more faceted, and to take into account that there are
> > > many view points. Now, it is possible to create a whole new wiki, to explore
> > > from your viewpoint, yet still keep it networked and linked to the wikis
> > > that grew out of. This is less of a "forking", and more of a "faceting".
> > >
> > > I host examples of this approach here:
> > >
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/HiveChanges
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/HiveChanges
> > > http://eartwiki.org/cgi-bin/hive/HiveChanges
> > >
> > > and the first version of this
> > > http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/RecentChanges
> > >
> > > This set up allows a person to simply tye the name of their wiki into
> > > a form, like this:
> > >
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/Startup
> > >
> > > This is based on http://oddmuse.org wiki engine (it is also currently
> > > possible to do the same thing with MoinMoin wiki engine, and some similar
> > > features http://prowiki.org). Some really interesting and useful
> > > features include:
> > >
> > >
> > >    - "sister site" links at the bottom of pages that are
> > >    "NearLinked"
> > >    - Combined recent changes among all wikis in wiki hive
> > >    - ability to combine recent changes with other wiki hives
> > >    - ability to near link to wikis that are based on other wiki
> > >    engines (like moinmoin)
> > >    - ability to create streams of output, and simple input forms
> > >    - ability to transclude pages into other pages
> > >    - ability to turn "anchors" into "objects" that can be linked to
> > >    (making comments into useful content that is reference able)
> > >    - ability to create custom content style sheets, some of which
> > >    can be configures to create, for instance, paper authoring, that prints
> > >    referenced papers
> > >    http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/PaperWriting/RecentChanges
> > >    - Support for multiple languages and switching languages on the
> > >    same page
> > >
> > >
> > > beyond all of that, this design pattern for wiki community encourages
> > > DbA over DbD
> > >
> > > it is a new, decentralized way to scale-up wiki, that puts more
> > > control into the user's hands and encourages link and promoted "addition",
> > > over burying deletion. I call it "burying" because the wiki still holds a
> > > record int he case of most wiki engines if you delete content. But this
> > > still makes it more difficult to find, and is obscured from search engines,
> > > which understandably do not follow all of the available revisions).
> > >
> > > We would love feedback on this additive, proliferation-based, and
> > > diversity-encouraging approach to wiki community building. Even if it is
> > > harsh criticism. We feel we have the basic structure in a very solid state,
> > > and we understand that the "user interface" and information architecture
> > > could be improved (both are openly editable by users).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 6, 2007 12:31 PM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > conversation starter:
> > > >
> > > > Deletionism, or Disagreement by Deletion
> > > >
> > > > long time ago in my naive days
> > > > Sunir Shah and I got talking about what was good about wikis.
> > > >
> > > > one of the key things was:
> > > > 1) disagreement by deletion
> > > > vs.
> > > > 2) disagreement by addition
> > > >
> > > > DbD was the old-school political philosophy of exclusive practice,
> > > > i.e. deciding who is "in" and who is "out"
> > > >
> > > > DbA was the new-school of pluralization, pluralism, and
> > > > conversation,
> > > > i.e. including perspectival acknowledgement as part of the process
> > > >
> > > > I actually used to lecture that this was a KEY reason why wikis are
> > > > politically revolutionary, which is that by using DbA they
> > > > 1) mesh with a multivocal world
> > > > 2) function on inclusion instead of fragmentation (echo chamber)
> > > >
> > > > Now we see the "new" spaces, turning into "old" spaces
> > > > by adopting the same rules as the old.
> > > >
> > > > Question:
> > > > Is this a historical inevitability.  Will new open spaces that
> > > > emerge,
> > > > ALWAYS become co-opted by the old rules systems?  Will they
> > > > ALWAYS be forced (as they scale?) to adopt the old rules?
> > > >
> > > > thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > -p
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > > >
> > > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sam Rose
> > > Social Synergy
> > > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > > AIM: Str9960
> > > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > > skype: samuelrose
> > > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> > >
> > > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > >
> > > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > > http://barcampbank.org
> > > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > > http://communitywiki.org
> > > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> > >
> > > Information Filtering:
> > > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > p2presearch mailing list
> > > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> > alternatives.
> >
> > Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> > http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
> >
> > Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> > http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
> > BEST VIDEO ON P2P: http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU
> >
> >
> > KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at
> > http://del.icio.us/mbauwens
> >
> > The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by
> > http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> AIM: Str9960
> Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
>
> Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> http://barcampbank.org
> http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://extinctionlevelevent.com
>
> Information Filtering:
> http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> http://del.icio.us/srose
> http://twitter.com/SamRose
>

-- 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
alternatives.

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by
http://www.ws-network.com/04_team.htm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20071207/0efb36e4/attachment-0001.html 