[p2p-research] disagreement by deletion/addition

Samuel Rose samuel.rose at gmail.com
Thu Dec 6 20:23:46 CET 2007 

Michel,

yes, I think the DbA design might be more useful for:


   1. highly "open" wiki communities, both Community over content, and
   content over community. reason why: people are expecting a more "open"
   attitude. DbA and "soft security"
   http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SoftSecurity help enable this and deal
   with complexity at the same time
   2. Community over content wikis in particular (though not always
   universally, again more towards the highly  "open")

In the case of p2pfoundation, which has a specific purpose among an
invitation-basd workgroup, I don't think the "Wiki Hive" super-expansionist
model would be so manageable, or useful for the goals of p2pfoundation wiki
resource

I think in the case of linking, that it might be possible to:

   1. create and run scripts that link up with matching entries at
   "sister sites"
   2. follow up with manual linking as well

Also, we could convince other sites to adopt a "category" standard, where
certain specific categories are agreed upon and applied to pages. So the
page names can be Mnemonic, but the Categories can be an agreed upon
taxonomy. Then, a script could be created to aggregate and link those
categories, even from other wiki engines. This would take a bit of manual
work, to add the categories, but many wikis already have Categories. There
are better solutions, but they are hard to apply to existing wiki,
sometimes.



On Dec 6, 2007 2:06 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:

> My concern is with complexity.
>
> You already explained how there is a difference between content and
> community oriented wiki's. The former, which you have chosen, might be
> better for insiders, but seems less accessible to outsiders, because of the
> more informal nature of the contributions, which assume lots of contextual
> knowledge.
>
> The other is, but I must admit I'm struggling with it as well, is, as we
> strive for comprehensiveness, we then start scaling beyond the optimal
> personal network effect, i.e. more becomes less. See
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Personal_Network_Effect (this applies to number
> of people, but just as much to number of entries I think)
>
> If I had the choice, I would also like to interlink the p2pfoundation.netwiki with some others, but I would leave it to individual effort, to
> actually link entries, I would create the possibility, but not create
> automaticity,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2007 1:46 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What about when the nature of the way we publish on the internet
> > changes? Michel has already talked about this in his response, which I
> > received while typing up this one.
> >
> > Basically, DbD tends to become more desirable for wiki communities that
> > are gaining larger "audiences", larger collections of inbound and outbound
> > links, and more usage/activity. When one (openly editable) wiki begins to
> > build up lots of links and usage, some of the people invested in the wiki,
> > and even new comers might decide they want to control the message through
> > deletion, often giving the reason that they don't want to encourage certain
> > patterns of usage by making it seem as if their existence is tolerated.
> >
> > One of the paradigms we created with the WikiHive model (WikiHive<http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WikiHive> http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WikiHive
> > – multiple installs of one wiki, working together)  is the ability for
> > people to instantly add a new wiki, that is then connected automatically by
> > links and recent changes to the "main" wiki. This is a decentralizing tool
> > that is an attempt to make a more even playing field, and to make
> > exploration of topics more faceted, and to take into account that there are
> > many view points. Now, it is possible to create a whole new wiki, to explore
> > from your viewpoint, yet still keep it networked and linked to the wikis
> > that grew out of. This is less of a "forking", and more of a "faceting".
> >
> > I host examples of this approach here:
> >
> > http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/HiveChanges
> > http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/HiveChanges
> > http://eartwiki.org/cgi-bin/hive/HiveChanges
> >
> > and the first version of this
> > http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/RecentChanges
> >
> > This set up allows a person to simply tye the name of their wiki into a
> > form, like this:
> >
> > http://socialsynergyweb.com/cgi-bin/wiki2/Startup
> >
> > This is based on http://oddmuse.org wiki engine (it is also currently
> > possible to do the same thing with MoinMoin wiki engine, and some similar
> > features http://prowiki.org). Some really interesting and useful
> > features include:
> >
> >
> >    - "sister site" links at the bottom of pages that are "NearLinked"
> >    - Combined recent changes among all wikis in wiki hive
> >    - ability to combine recent changes with other wiki hives
> >    - ability to near link to wikis that are based on other wiki
> >    engines (like moinmoin)
> >    - ability to create streams of output, and simple input forms
> >    - ability to transclude pages into other pages
> >    - ability to turn "anchors" into "objects" that can be linked to
> >    (making comments into useful content that is reference able)
> >    - ability to create custom content style sheets, some of which can
> >    be configures to create, for instance, paper authoring, that prints
> >    referenced papers
> >    http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/PaperWriting/RecentChanges
> >    - Support for multiple languages and switching languages on the
> >    same page
> >
> >
> > beyond all of that, this design pattern for wiki community encourages
> > DbA over DbD
> >
> > it is a new, decentralized way to scale-up wiki, that puts more control
> > into the user's hands and encourages link and promoted "addition", over
> > burying deletion. I call it "burying" because the wiki still holds a record
> > int he case of most wiki engines if you delete content. But this still makes
> > it more difficult to find, and is obscured from search engines, which
> > understandably do not follow all of the available revisions).
> >
> > We would love feedback on this additive, proliferation-based, and
> > diversity-encouraging approach to wiki community building. Even if it is
> > harsh criticism. We feel we have the basic structure in a very solid state,
> > and we understand that the "user interface" and information architecture
> > could be improved (both are openly editable by users).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 6, 2007 12:31 PM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > conversation starter:
> > >
> > > Deletionism, or Disagreement by Deletion
> > >
> > > long time ago in my naive days
> > > Sunir Shah and I got talking about what was good about wikis.
> > >
> > > one of the key things was:
> > > 1) disagreement by deletion
> > > vs.
> > > 2) disagreement by addition
> > >
> > > DbD was the old-school political philosophy of exclusive practice,
> > > i.e. deciding who is "in" and who is "out"
> > >
> > > DbA was the new-school of pluralization, pluralism, and conversation,
> > > i.e. including perspectival acknowledgement as part of the process
> > >
> > > I actually used to lecture that this was a KEY reason why wikis are
> > > politically revolutionary, which is that by using DbA they
> > > 1) mesh with a multivocal world
> > > 2) function on inclusion instead of fragmentation (echo chamber)
> > >
> > > Now we see the "new" spaces, turning into "old" spaces
> > > by adopting the same rules as the old.
> > >
> > > Question:
> > > Is this a historical inevitability.  Will new open spaces that emerge,
> > >
> > > ALWAYS become co-opted by the old rules systems?  Will they
> > > ALWAYS be forced (as they scale?) to adopt the old rules?
> > >
> > > thoughts?
> > >
> > > -p
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > > http://www.panarchy.com
> > > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> > >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> > >
> > > See differently, then you will act differently.
> > >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sam Rose
> > Social Synergy
> > Cel: +1-517-974-6451
> > AIM: Str9960
> > Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
> > skype: samuelrose
> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
> > http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com
> >
> > Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
> > OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
> > http://p2pfoundation.net
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > http://www.cooperationcommons.com
> > http://barcampbank.org
> > http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
> > http://communitywiki.org
> > http://extinctionlevelevent.com
> >
> > Information Filtering:
> > http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
> > http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
> > http://del.icio.us/srose
> > http://twitter.com/SamRose
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer
> alternatives.
>
> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at
> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
>
> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html
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>
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>



-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Cel: +1-517-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com/services
http://blog.socialsynergyweb.com

Related Sites/Blogs/Projects:
OpenBusinessModels: http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/FrontPage
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
http://www.cooperationcommons.com
http://barcampbank.org
http://bfwatch.barcampbank.org
http://communitywiki.org
http://extinctionlevelevent.com

Information Filtering:
http://socialsynergyweb.com/gregarius/
http://ma.gnolia.com/people/srose/bookmarks
http://del.icio.us/srose
http://twitter.com/SamRose
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