[p2p-research] disagreement by deletion/addition BOOSTING MORAL

Thu Dec 6 20:12:14 CET 2007

My question: is it still really productive to think in terms of reform vs.
revolution. I would tend to say: there is only one world, in which we have
the opportunity to create new life practices using different counter-logics,
which to various degrees will be adopted, transformed by the dominating
logic.However, if we interconnect/internetwork the life practices strongly
enough, at one point, they are no longer absorbable, and a phase shift
occurs to the new counterlogic as new meta-system. That's how it happened in
the past meta-transitions, and I think it is likely to happen again in the
future.

Both the notions that all are efforts are doomed to be absorbed, and that we
need a radical revolution first, are equally de-motivating and
self-defeating notions, in my opinion,
\
Michel

On Dec 7, 2007 1:40 AM, Athina Karatzogianni <athina.k at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi MIchel
>
> This has been also my question and my motivation for writing on
> cryptohierarchies.....
>
> on your question 'Will new open spaces that emerge,
> ALWAYS become co-opted by the old rules systems?  Will they
> ALWAYS be forced (as they scale?) to adopt the old rules?'
>
> I would go argue that to be co-opted means to be forced to take a 'reform'
> attitutude to social change (see for example the reform wings in the global
> social movements to reform global neoliberal institutions etc), a more
> 'gradual' change, like running two parallel systems, so  people would have
> time to adjust,  often means that change is  more like 'improvement' or
> 'inclusion' on social conditions, not radical change, which truly upsets the
> status quo in any way
>
> i d say that is the politically correct style revolution!
>
> the other option 'the truly radical revolutionary' change from one day to
> the next is always crashing against the unwillingness of human nature, of
> domestic governments and the hierarchical world system to adapt and to lose
> and gain in the process, often met with violence or blockage, repression in
> all social settings, internet non excluded as you know.
>
> In other words, closure and fixity is always there to piss everyone off
> and to enclose the open spaces we create. However the filights away from the
> system smoothed and morphed as a result of these spaces are somehow i think
> registered and provide the 'bad' examples for the new generation to follow
> (if they get off their consumerist arses and do something eventually!)
>
> its not my fault you asked..........
>
> hope all is well!
> athina
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2007 5:31 PM, Paul B. Hartzog <paulbhartzog at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > conversation starter:
> >
> > Deletionism, or Disagreement by Deletion
> >
> > long time ago in my naive days
> > Sunir Shah and I got talking about what was good about wikis.
> >
> > one of the key things was:
> > 1) disagreement by deletion
> > vs.
> > 2) disagreement by addition
> >
> > DbD was the old-school political philosophy of exclusive practice,
> > i.e. deciding who is "in" and who is "out"
> >
> > DbA was the new-school of pluralization, pluralism, and conversation,
> > i.e. including perspectival acknowledgement as part of the process
> >
> > I actually used to lecture that this was a KEY reason why wikis are
> > politically revolutionary, which is that by using DbA they
> > 1) mesh with a multivocal world
> > 2) function on inclusion instead of fragmentation (echo chamber)
> >
> > Now we see the "new" spaces, turning into "old" spaces
> > by adopting the same rules as the old.
> >
> > Question:
> > Is this a historical inevitability.  Will new open spaces that emerge,
> > ALWAYS become co-opted by the old rules systems?  Will they
> > ALWAYS be forced (as they scale?) to adopt the old rules?
> >
> > thoughts?
> >
> > -p
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.PaulBHartzog.org
> > http://www.panarchy.com
> > PaulBHartzog at PaulBHartzog.org
> > PaulBHartzog at panarchy.com
> > PHartzog at umich.edu
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > The Universe is made up of stories, not atoms.
> >                 --Muriel Rukeyser
> >
> > See differently, then you will act differently.
> >                 --Paul B. Hartzog
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr Athina Karatzogianni
> Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
> The University of Hull
> United Kingdom
> HU6 7RX
>
> Check out Athina's work:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyberconflict-Routledge-Research-Information-Technology/dp/0415396840/
>
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Resistance-Conflict-Contemporary-World/dp/0415452988/
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyber-conflict-Politics-Contemporary-Security-Studies/dp/0415459702/
>
>
>
> Press interviews:
>
> France:http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-924253,0.html
> Greece: http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,id=78490200
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

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