From: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <501EFBBA-8A14-4B64-BD77-1ED5119154EA@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_9C0F7122-3F55-4ABA-8827-9085F2567FA8";
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\))
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 11:18:04 +0200
In-Reply-To: <B23C4FC6-2991-4C1B-8B8E-AAA06E9E578F@voskuil.org>
To: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com>
	<A64C3DCB-10CE-45EA-9A1B-7E3D13DF90EA@gmail.com>
	<6B9A04E2-8EEE-40A0-8B39-64AA0F478CAB@voskuil.org>
	<SEQmsx6ck79biVthBbBk1b9r9-R45sBwqWrv3FewQIBl4J18sOlwAPRt8sbTIbrBB8DX538GfwQkU40lyODmEkGSwah_VmbXT8iOr2Jcjlw=@protonmail.com>
	<F17F2E86-BFA4-456E-85F9-0D6583692AEC@voskuil.org>
	<kSCa9KUmpJox2_aglqhel-WdGlXf14mfKNZ95T4xqsrkQJ2Zh5zFA-Llq-j9cXX87iEPP5_aCkO9oR5kfQGKMBK9ds3Jct1V1FAawwa4CyE=@protonmail.com>
	<B853EDF2-8A8A-44B0-A66E-F86175E61EDA@voskuil.org>
	<4mT6iC4Va7Afg15a5NLbddAnF2a_vAcQSXYr_jg_5IyEK2ezblJff7EJZakoqvp4BJlLitt9Zlq1_l5JadR0nVss7VDPW-pv8jXGh7lkFC4=@protonmail.com>
	<A1ADD0BB-F62F-47AF-B043-53BDF3A88CC3@voskuil.org>
	<UyUISFwgh_-KtxpCJonltkqTvVbI9-NBukizE8tKSjB2V12otZiCWQ64sn8oqYk5NDftNHxW3koT9EPOWwVrOkXTP8Dqc-0W0wPGRK-wT34=@protonmail.com>
	<0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org>
	<8D68DC86-1173-43AC-BC84-FE2834741C13@gmail.com>
	<B23C4FC6-2991-4C1B-8B8E-AAA06E9E578F@voskuil.org>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable
 riskless or risky lending,
 prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
Precedence: list


--Apple-Mail=_9C0F7122-3F55-4ABA-8827-9085F2567FA8
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321"


--Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

Hi Eric,

Your cryproeconomic theories may describe correctly Bitcoin as money, =
but fall short of describing a Bitcoin that would also offer reliable =
memory for other uses.

In consequence you miss, that:

1. If the reliable memory that enables money would have more uses then =
even temporary use of the memory would have utility, therefore value. =
Bitcoin as is, does not have consensus rules to enable reliable =
alternate uses.

2. Finite supply of coins implies a finite memory capacity of Bitcoin. =
Alternate use of the memory requires that units at least temporarily =
become un-fungible, enforced by consensus. Alternate uses would then =
have to compete for units of memory, which would give rise to a price =
paid to those enabling alternate use, even if temoprarily.

3. If giving up control temorarily has a positive price (through 2) and =
return of control is certain (enforced by consenus) then the price paid =
is riskless interest for those giving up temporary control.

4. If a use requires more units of memory then it imposes higher cost to =
use and it since memory units are finite it imposes more severe =
scarcity.

Further certainly subjective remarks:

Although burning and loss is unavoidable and therefore Bitcoin (as is) =
is unsustainable we should design systems that they sustain it as long =
as possible (as is). Therefore a requirement to burn for any of =
unlimited number of uses should be avoided.

We currently perceive borrowed money just as good as (fungible with) any =
other money. This is a consequence that money actually comes into =
existence through someone borrowing it. Money on your account is a loan =
you gave the bank and even paper cash is a loan you gave the central =
bank.

Bitcoin is different as it just is, it is not borrowed into existence. =
Therefore it is not fungible with borrowed version of itself. This =
however does not imply that its borrowed version is worthless as it =
might be worth something if there is a use for it.

Tamas Blummer

> On Jul 7, 2019, at 03:30, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>=20
> I have published a summary here:
>=20
> =
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-Return-Fall=
acy =
<https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-Return-Fal=
lacy>
>=20
> Barring any new consequential inputs I=E2=80=99ll refrain from further =
comment.
>=20
> e
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Eric,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your cryproeconomic theories may =
describe correctly Bitcoin as money, but fall short of describing a =
Bitcoin that would also offer reliable memory for other uses.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In consequence you miss, =
that:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. If =
the reliable memory that enables money would have more uses then even =
temporary use of the memory would have utility, therefore value. Bitcoin =
as is, does not have consensus rules to enable reliable alternate =
uses.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. =
Finite supply of coins implies a finite memory capacity of Bitcoin. =
Alternate use of the memory requires that units at least temporarily =
become un-fungible, enforced by consensus. Alternate uses would then =
have to compete for units of memory, which would give rise to a price =
paid to those enabling alternate use, even if =
temoprarily.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">3. If giving up control temorarily has a positive price =
(through 2) and return of control is certain (enforced by consenus) then =
the price paid is riskless interest for those giving up temporary =
control.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">4. If =
a use requires more units of memory then it imposes higher cost to use =
and it since memory units are finite it imposes more severe =
scarcity.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Further certainly subjective remarks:</div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Although burning and =
loss is unavoidable and therefore Bitcoin (as is) is unsustainable we =
should design systems that they sustain it as long as possible (as is). =
Therefore a requirement to burn for any of unlimited number of uses =
should be avoided.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">We currently perceive borrowed money just as good as =
(fungible with) any other money. This is a consequence that money =
actually comes into existence through someone borrowing it. Money on =
your account is a loan you gave the bank and even paper cash is a loan =
you gave the central bank.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Bitcoin is different as it just is, it =
is not borrowed into existence. Therefore it is not fungible with =
borrowed version of itself. This however does not imply that its =
borrowed version is worthless as it might be worth something if there is =
a use for it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Tamas Blummer</div><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 7, 2019, at 03:30, Eric =
Voskuil &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.org" =
class=3D"">eric@voskuil.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I have published a summary =
here:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-Ret=
urn-Fallacy" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-=
Return-Fallacy</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Barring any new =
consequential inputs I=E2=80=99ll refrain from further =
comment.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">e</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321--

--Apple-Mail=_9C0F7122-3F55-4ABA-8827-9085F2567FA8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
	name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0huMwACgkQ9nKRxRdx
ORwMnwgAuOwedUyp25fNfCIHKojhl9MxWk20TVyrjZMOEWfxeRp7BcVjSvHNjZEb
/qtUF8kNZhafC7SDL6rNeSXX0Ijz/Y52jPcZBVWmOLDwebpt9kAlmJKBB310XEJe
Yp/pv2DuBzE4tZqFOPGQo0LVoMEKBq25Ujmz07OUeljU6sa+zI6pHZk3VqwO8waC
SVZAL2ltXbDm+FpWG0LqTHCIaazOyEJag1LxogaV2rYyGRnEn1h1kyoMHyUADSIp
HavaPOldwrj0HkTD2YLE2GFip1qV3J+76NnNvp5CvttWOwpX1CN64lh1fA7eZ9Fh
kot+FELsSRc35M7obIuF08HEyJq3pQ==
=oShZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Apple-Mail=_9C0F7122-3F55-4ABA-8827-9085F2567FA8--