Return-Path: Received: from hemlock.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BECC013A for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2021 20:39:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hemlock.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130C186F8D for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2021 20:39:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from hemlock.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sl4LhR9Imp81 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2021 20:39:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-qk1-f169.google.com (mail-qk1-f169.google.com [209.85.222.169]) by hemlock.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D157E86F8C for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2021 20:39:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qk1-f169.google.com with SMTP id z11so19909670qkj.7 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:39:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/TjdeFu1FfV/2hW3j2l7IBslkbAu3TSuKkXoTeJHPlA=; b=LW4tDAHV3zYE1cP0WANF0qMfgdpZzsDhDoSu9eCiQd8I437Nwbehy2FO6wfoe61gAZ gyRMu7K5kyj4dzrlvKsALyHTtqwHISyrD+/GnsGGOwEQWfjGFLK9MApXAmjAWfLjAKwg WX0e1OFrkxyyLEgBiikJyoxJ1CwGep7SOVTRG57jbphRe8WXlG/KoTZhIO/gr/bgHe0H sog//5laS7VvJEtzfM61GZQ+w3Fz8uQAIx4iIEchngr17HzdxlLqDI3UvU0ATYkhfj/E oA/zGAd+l1/lZr+H6L9XkfmB1HNKACo//BYh+qQTJy9ww2xmHSX3FH4rd3eCHRZ/Pixu m2ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=/TjdeFu1FfV/2hW3j2l7IBslkbAu3TSuKkXoTeJHPlA=; b=JQqHaNzibSUH2T/Q0uz8+/+Jwhci2158ZT/qcPaibNxZdgtI97ysN2/DhI+uxkFHWT qIQkizkGQvVo+CEu5k/hKXAXD3RSew5axyF2woiSkBHWZ2hRK36LJpxKfit/DXByDOyj stzH6iX9ysHruGjbmukTidHpxT6lVE6YqksHa3LBxws0xwaW4pimhJFitLKZ4LYwxqeU DGmkrPqXmZkLCd0PtgPcYHbF8dtVbEzsIuVirPVDV+qiLHKOQ/nKa1XHzoQU0BIT8kbg MTSSD4Oi2Vnves5VlsN+sw0pec3Rd7Q0ImzNRyOmxLY4g7DEBMdLKo0sH1QHqvyJqLSk cFbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HhZo5ltf3mOV3ECqzy9Fxy+444GOW0lBB0K1VD+bbzEM0vsXb Zy0x62QPcv1sK53oKKh/4iOYNmj1Fqm1uHYjcKASctXzjbhSXw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3ePor7ifqxLAQohwPpjRk0yxIEB4rK+jWNWVXZuqMBzRJi1sxXJ1ee8X/aEJQ3p9ZgTvs4T5C7X2b0LiAZzQ= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f818:: with SMTP id x24mr1326548qkh.415.1611002342813; Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:39:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2b8ba39f-8fe9-8800-b8e6-47ca263774d5@riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <2b8ba39f-8fe9-8800-b8e6-47ca263774d5@riseup.net> From: Lucas Ontivero Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:38:51 -0300 Message-ID: To: Chris Belcher , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006032b405b932b679" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 21:32:43 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 20:39:05 -0000 --0000000000006032b405b932b679 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a good idea. ----- Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21 uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address). All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is more or less true for many people. Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all. The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably using a output descriptor you created to share with me). Sorry for the long semi-random rant. El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (< bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>) escribi=C3=B3: > PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the > potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on > bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has > already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as > BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. > > I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption > > It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. > > > Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with > the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll > quote here: > > > you=E2=80=99re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not = an > exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you > use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and > adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to > increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become > rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your > account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did > wrong. And quite possibly you didn=E2=80=99t do anything wrong. But that = won=E2=80=99t > matter. > > > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this > trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal > wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere > except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a > regular bank account. You won=E2=80=99t have a bitcoin wallet, you will h= ave > accounts to websites. > > https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye > > If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for > the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase > adoption of PayJoin? > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000006032b405b932b679 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi

Before all, thank= s for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a good idea.
=

-----

Even when there is a reas= onable economical incentive to use segwit transactions to save fees a big p= ercentage of the transactions are not using segwit yet. In the case of payj= oins the economic incentives are not so big while the privacy benefits are = not so clear for the payer as they are for the global transactions graph as= a whole. This means that payjoins requires some level of altruist attitude= from the payers. The payjoins UX is also not good because I think most use= rs are not familiar with bip21 uris (users still request support because th= ey pay a bech32 address in an exchange and the exchange tells them that'= ;s not a valid bitcoin address). All this is relative and subjective but in= general terms I would say it is more or less true for many people.

=
Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins paym= ent by default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveilla= nce to spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it shoul= d be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't = require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable s= lower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all. =

The only way I see to achieve something like that is by movin= g to schemes where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able t= o know something about you that allows me to select your name from my conta= ct list and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to f= ind yours then it can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one= for you (probably using a output descriptor you created to share with me).=

Sorry for the long semi-random rant.

El vie, 15 ene 2021 = a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>= ) escribi=C3=B3:
PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard ha= s
already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.

I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption

It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.


Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll quote here:

> you=E2=80=99re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not= an
exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
wrong. And quite possibly you didn=E2=80=99t do anything wrong. But that wo= n=E2=80=99t
matter.
>
> The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
regular bank account. You won=E2=80=99t have a bitcoin wallet, you will hav= e
accounts to websites.

https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/63850400= 4285054976/goodbye

If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increas= e
adoption of PayJoin?
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--0000000000006032b405b932b679--