Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VhDgC-0004IW-PK for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 07:19:00 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.48; envelope-from=laanwj@gmail.com; helo=mail-bk0-f48.google.com; Received: from mail-bk0-f48.google.com ([209.85.214.48]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1VhDgB-0000fv-7h for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 07:19:00 +0000 Received: by mail-bk0-f48.google.com with SMTP id v10so942849bkz.21 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:18:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.204.173.6 with SMTP id n6mr3241451bkz.5.1384499932765; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.71.206 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:18:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:18:52 +0100 Message-ID: From: Wladimir To: Jeff Garzik Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51a7782af483804eb3202d0 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: doubleclick.net] -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (laanwj[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1VhDgB-0000fv-7h Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 07:19:01 -0000 --bcaec51a7782af483804eb3202d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote: > Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers > to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is > untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). > I have used mBTC for a long time and never had cope with more than two numbers to the right of the decimal (which is the norm in euro countries). Sure, if we have another 100x+ price increase then =CE=BCBTC is a better pi= ck, but right now that would give us *intimidating large numbers*. Though I have always liked the idea of moving to mBTC or =CE=BCBTC, I want = the community to take initiative before switching over the default in the reference client. The alternative units should first be sufficiently known to the user base. It has been possible for a long time to set the reference client to those units (and all mentions of monetary value are accompanied with a unit). Maybe we should stealthily collect people's settings and switch over once a majority switched *ducks*. Or, more seriously, maybe add a popup when upgrading the first time to 0.9 with an explanation where people can reconsider their unit setting? Wladimir > - Jeff > On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, "Mark Friedenbach" wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to >> uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to >> the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new >> national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale >> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~=3D $0.01 currently. And I don't think very >> many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long >> term perspective. >> >> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once. >> >> Mark >> >> On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: >> > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the >> > base unit in such an established system. There is no easy way to >> > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth... >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) >> Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ >> >> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20 >> hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR >> HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89 >> 4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i >> ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU >> 4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci >> g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8 >> SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8 >> fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw >> tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA >> XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz >> ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0 >> =3DQW1i >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps >> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access >> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. >> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg= .clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps > OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access > Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. > Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg.= clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --bcaec51a7782af483804eb3202d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@b= itpay.com> wrote:

Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer syste= ms handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). = The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).=

I have used mBTC for a long time and never had cope with = more than two numbers to the right of the decimal (which is the norm in eur= o countries). Sure, if we have another 100x+ price increase then =CE=BCBTC = is a better pick, but right now that would give us *intimidating large numb= ers*.

Though I have always liked the idea of moving to = mBTC or =CE=BCBTC, I want the community to take initiative before switching= over the default in the reference client. The alternative units should fir= st be sufficiently known to the user base.

It has been possible for a long time to set the referen= ce client to those units (and all mentions of monetary value are accompanie= d with a unit).
Maybe we should stealthily collect people's s= ettings and switch over once a majority switched *ducks*.

Or, more seriously, maybe add a popup when upgrading th= e first time to 0.9 with an explanation where people can reconsider their u= nit setting?

Wladimir

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Jeff

On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, "Mark Friedenbach&= quot; <mark@moneti= ze.io> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~=3D $0.01 currently. And I don't think ver= y
many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
term perspective.

Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.

Mark

On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to cha= nge the
> base unit in such an established system. =C2=A0There is no easy way to=
> do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http:= //gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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=3DQW1i
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
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Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
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DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native = Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
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