Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D35C0001 for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 18:10:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89088838FB for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 18:10:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xRBVUs1NtsCf for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 18:10:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1999838F0 for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 18:10:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id a2so5446604lfc.9 for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 11:10:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EFBN0voS1iVbq80rCfjlMev/+GraYastXccDC2rJ7uM=; b=BFNA1Med8bKMXUbDtYtQLeEnM9n6SnRHp8SPn/k+oA64PmMm5d9PffGR1g6P/yiWRd MLosIu5s7sNfINzBnDDKUX+7eb64ApJ6kkVVFkAk0jNgmlmATZ/5dksviHl7zBnu7x+c 8/7tHFF1AAJqsQ1Z/A0Ei0lESMMXAJyczSB0wfunMzSuvGFaKt+13U+gGTirv7Fmqwba 8V35VaDdioKCHKADDt7QUwQNnYzlsPpVUhvzPm6q3oWXHijxH+Ni11c1ST1hibK9t9sJ xkbM3ebES7fZFVfHQeTCGOYLTbL7bdomgZgHfOeC3yVGaCFM9Ra7QOVg78vwIAieqfbI 6+eQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EFBN0voS1iVbq80rCfjlMev/+GraYastXccDC2rJ7uM=; b=ACYvO2SvQgI1sSnMUsNBF5JyPeu0RNLuXXLFkL5a43ejA57hPBhQtdOTBZiBlFIYQ7 Q7uVVIKkso52/8am/4c+liwbQmKdsQ2QI5OIoQ+TQNODyxmhNjOGrzDyzulQK9H0+sLO LET2282e/lM6VOM08HpE68QspVdEB24Xa6flk1PssBrK3va8H2ZHYWMXfcvF9EfJUCeR CBG7/60AMNmnXYKfmibdBHTVAWGDeTIMdjMOvvy6GYzeiO8L/VmEG1lrM3hgCwl4p5RJ ysIqlbC26KUKsFRlrwFrVMIqGSNGjo9MhPZi/Ym6Zf4bfwN3oaGp7VivhKSyKr5xEhh8 kmZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533EtRKqVvQkxN/gMJ5xKCPtwl1QzYjlqUpdzmIpwWp13W8BprjM QsvS3v7ELUgvNIJSVc5qt8ib1r9frx3exaJJd9FMn5MD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz923o5r8xhBJApmQgECrzUtWSy3fuZQcgy00t5sUKFN3rVhWTGD2WEbx6hE34nVKnQVH0LcQUqyKq5ESSIAHg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3592:: with SMTP id m18mr5235117lfr.454.1621188614111; Sun, 16 May 2021 11:10:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:651c:2109:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 16 May 2021 11:10:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Karl Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 14:10:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 16 May 2021 19:02:14 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Force to do nothing for first 9 minutes to save 90% of mining energy X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 18:10:17 -0000 [sorry if I haven't replied to the other thread on this, I get swamped by email and don't catch them all] This solution is workable but it seems somewhat difficult to me at this tim= e. The clock might be implementable on a peer network level by requiring inclusion of a transaction that was broadcast after a 9 minute delay. Usually a 50% hashrate attack is needed to reverse a transaction in bitcoin. With this change, this naively appears to become a 5% hashrate attack, unless a second source of truth around time and order is added, to verify proposed histories with. A 5% hashrate attack is much harder here, because the users of mining pools would be mining only 10% of the time, so compromising mining pools would not be as useful. Historically, hashrate has increased exponentially. This means that the difficulty of performing an attack, whether it is 5% or 50%, is still culturally infeasible because it is a multiplicative, rather than an exponential, change. If this approach were to be implemented, it could be important to consider how many block confirmations people wait for to trust their transaction is on the chain. A lone powerful miner could intentionally fork the chain more easily by a factor of 10. They would need to have hashrate that competes with a major pool to do so. > How would you prevent miners to already compute the simpler difficulty pr= oblem directly after the block was found and publish their solution directl= y after minute 9? We would always have many people with a finished / compet= ing solution. Such a chain would have to wait a longer time to add further blocks and would permanently be shorter. > Your proposal won=E2=80=99t save any energy because it does nothing to de= crease the budget available to mine a block (being the block reward). You are assuming this budget is directly related to energy expenditure, but if energy is only expended for 10% of the same duration, this money must now be spent on hardware. The supply of bitcoin hardware is limited. In the long term, it won't be, so a 10% decrease is a stop-gap measure. Additionally, in the long term, we will have quantum computers and AI-designed cryptography algorithms, so things will be different in a lot of other ways too.