Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60515C002D for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:04:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1407F812BE for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:04:14 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 1407F812BE Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=tyvcuRrW X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oz3YEwSCTqBl for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:04:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org D4B8180E55 Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B8180E55 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:04:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490BF5C018A; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 02 Nov 2022 10:04:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1667397849; x=1667484249; bh=vL+BbhO0ev67UYfbOAriBGbA5qum HLFUEZwBF1cFTGY=; b=tyvcuRrWoD7hvzSaQilwPdJvmtyi6I+n878z2t+VDvG5 MjfkDfHd6/mBMtLKA2ctDXoOFfwSnQS9aDqfVQjtMauVuOjalzID/uJT2UJodswM mhZMWPYRu4sjmF4cxJA/sNC3PYTYgMPStvzyplHt2gOXDelXuYmB5ZEI2QO021Nn iHHBeFrNFf3EB9sH2GnPADyyjUB0UCxjZP1BN6kdcBa1hOltFFZIToNA7dHGa/L6 58zhHto7sRyVOc5O0+HApwbZH1V0YowN84lH+crDMboeyGb/PUTCcJL9BdiQpUGR nU87TSPxeCQNEmxnxal4bxzzOCf3CjkASpYLRDsFQA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvgedrudejgdehlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcu vfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrh hnpeeivddvleeikeejueekgfdtleefgeehheelffeuheetgefhleevjeefleegvefffeen ucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpe dtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhr gh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6BB5F5F734; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:04:03 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Antoine Riard , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YpW0Xlw4YoIoJXhD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Solving Multi-Party Flows Pinning with Opt-in Full-RBF Spent-nVersion Signaling X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 14:04:14 -0000 --YpW0Xlw4YoIoJXhD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 01, 2022 at 10:21:59PM -0400, Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev wro= te: > Hi list, >=20 > Reading Suhas's post on mempool policy consistency rules, and the grounded > suggestion that as protocol developers we should work on special policy > rules to support each reasonable use case on the network rather to arbiter > between class of use-cases in the design of an > unified set of rules, reminded me there is another solution to solve > multi-party funding pinning rather than wide deployment of fullrbf. This > was communicated to me a while back, and it was originally dismissed > because of the privacy trade-offs (and potential slight fees overhead > cost). However, if widely adopted, they might sound acceptable to > contracting protocol developers and operators. Strong NACK. Zeroconf is, at best, a very marginal usecase. The only services that have spoken up in support of it are Bitrefill and Muun, and the latter says they= 're working to get rid of their vulnerability to it. People attempting to make = it secure have repeatedly done sybil attacks against the network in attempts to measure transaction propagation. And of course, if transaction fees and full mempools are in our near future - as is widely expected - mempool consisten= cy will even further diminish making zeroconf even harder to achieve. Incurring a bunch of engineering costs and harming privacy for the sake of continuing this nonsense is ridiculous. If anything, we should be moving to full-RBF so we can undo the privacy cost that is opt-in-RBF: right now 30% of transactions are having to harm their privacy by signalling support for it. Full-RBF will allow that wallet distinguisher to be eliminated. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --YpW0Xlw4YoIoJXhD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmNieMgACgkQLly11TVR LzfVvQ/9GvYQHKvuR2Ee4kcUCm4FreVxWx3hSA7M9ri8dv2KdyOWXN3e5Px+ElKL KlRdmiuEKfNzkAdZbq16QdP/dEZ/ib3Ub6ilHFCuhFU5X/2A/EDzbgdyNmZHbjam 4NS+EfmpMMi+6dFcL8/NJ60z5SGoGI+IVSoxyIJNuqL5bQ5q0mE/FDU3Xzy2hQIO sjYs4Eb2mXLa/WD5gtM4UvalzkrNj8OkLW2c4FT9NXgdtwKFtdW6dPeKt+R5dZoe Zd3YndDM8n5yjXNN7j+7egcJHUduPl5TRaYWTjmaBuI4oPdTr/NkI1Boji+qlp9z v6TUt0pDe7ryKB8UvD1ApxWn9UvjWPBMxy4OcWwKfdv/qFwmI8JA4mDChqAgIW04 u72mlQWQlepbOF3UInZ0fmUGDXbYN/5LqCUHW30Ufw5KdVCcITP85xArpR4Zkr42 hqn+SbpZZj9PzGtR2gMWHcTjn8et4ieLsLtBUC2D08IWDtcn3iLn0Mt++oKxFNqL ArqqehFPD0KMRYuRFe0Z3zmf8fRbtSZzKGkpQv6qSegZr0N8vbQDcwQqDXb7NPWu dhz8RMXVyVR6a3fXI86INFTUIx7ahO0E7gewuxtaQPTZESehxbq60t5xThtuiB/W PNXc/bvsbAYey1Rw/BDGbu78fOOdZB6wXJ+cRqiZBejR9lV6xyg= =TQ3M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YpW0Xlw4YoIoJXhD--