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From: Ruben Somsen <rsomsen@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:53:15 +0100
Message-ID: <CAPv7TjZxFr4LhpVSeP__Y7Sk3JB=uMypoayhOcps9VuORYDdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: AdamISZ <AdamISZ@protonmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bulletin boards without selective censorability
 for bitcoin fungibility markets
Precedence: list

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Hi Adam,

That's a tricky issue you're trying to tackle.

>and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that is too slow and
expensive, usually

While perhaps not the most easy/practical path to take, it IS possible to
create a custom blockchain for this specific purpose to use as a
censorship-resistant data layer via Blind Merged Mining:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-December/01753=
4.html

Note that while it's not described in detail in my post, there is a
(slightly suboptimal) way to do it without a soft fork.

And here are more details about the perpetual one-way peg mechanism (needed
to pay for fees without introducing speculation):
https://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-million-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-=
the-perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302

Cheers,
Ruben

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original =
Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
> On Monday, 23 November 2020 00:40, AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > Canvassing opinions/critiques from those working on bitcoin and related
> protocols.
> >
> > See the attached gist for a write-up of an outline of an idea, which is
> conceived for joinmarket but can apply in other scenarios where there is
> market for liquidity and in which privacy is a very high priority (hence
> 'bitcoin fungibility markets' can certainly include coinswap along with
> coinjoin, but possibly other things):
> >
> > https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b621d6
>
> Greg Maxwell pointed out to me on IRC that this idea doesn't work: there
> is only a receipt on the commitment to the offer (message) from the maker=
,
> not on the plaintext version, hence there is nothing stopping the maker
> from falsely claiming censorship after not sending the plaintext.
>
> Reflecting on this a bit more, my intuition is that this problem is much
> more difficult than I had hoped; if there is a solution I suspect it
> involves much more sophisticated ideas. Many solutions just end up beggin=
g
> the question by presuming the existence of an uncensorable BB in order to
> create a new one; and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that i=
s
> too slow and expensive, usually. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though =
:)
>
> waxwing
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adam,<div><br></div><div>That&#39;s a tricky issue you&=
#39;re trying to tackle.<br><div><div><br></div><div>&gt;and/or use the blo=
ckchain for that function, but that is too slow and expensive, usually<br><=
/div></div><div><br></div><div>While perhaps not the most easy/practical pa=
th to take, it IS possible to create a custom blockchain for this specific =
purpose to use as a censorship-resistant data layer via Blind Merged Mining=
:</div><div><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-=
dev/2019-December/017534.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/=
bitcoin-dev/2019-December/017534.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Note=
 that while it&#39;s not described in detail in my post, there is a (slight=
ly suboptimal) way to do it without a soft fork.</div><div><br></div><div>A=
nd here are more details about the perpetual one-way peg mechanism (needed =
to pay for fees without introducing speculation):</div><div><a href=3D"http=
s://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-million-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-the-=
perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302">https://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-mill=
ion-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-the-perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302<=
/a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Ruben</div></div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon,=
 Nov 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitc=
oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=E2=
=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Messa=
ge =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90<br>
On Monday, 23 November 2020 00:40, AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@=
lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Canvassing opinions/critiques from those working on bitcoin and relate=
d protocols.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; See the attached gist for a write-up of an outline of an idea, which i=
s conceived for joinmarket but can apply in other scenarios where there is =
market for liquidity and in which privacy is a very high priority (hence &#=
39;bitcoin fungibility markets&#39; can certainly include coinswap along wi=
th coinjoin, but possibly other things):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b=
621d6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ=
/b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b621d6</a><br>
<br>
Greg Maxwell pointed out to me on IRC that this idea doesn&#39;t work: ther=
e is only a receipt on the commitment to the offer (message) from the maker=
, not on the plaintext version, hence there is nothing stopping the maker f=
rom falsely claiming censorship after not sending the plaintext.<br>
<br>
Reflecting on this a bit more, my intuition is that this problem is much mo=
re difficult than I had hoped; if there is a solution I suspect it involves=
 much more sophisticated ideas. Many solutions just end up begging the ques=
tion by presuming the existence of an uncensorable BB in order to create a =
new one; and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that is too slow =
and expensive, usually. I&#39;d be happy to be proved wrong, though :)<br>
<br>
waxwing<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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