Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WCwCG-0000Bh-Ai for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:07:12 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from nl.grid.coop ([50.7.166.116]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1WCwCE-0005iT-GJ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:07:12 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by nl.grid.coop with local; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 13:07:03 -0600 id 000000000006A32F.0000000052F92357.00007246 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 13:07:03 -0600 From: Troy Benjegerdes To: Jameson Lopp Message-ID: <20140210190703.GO3180@nl.grid.coop> References: <20140210144003.2BDCCDDAEFC@quidecco.de> <20140210163055.GJ3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140210182506.GM3180@nl.grid.coop> <52F91E66.6060305@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52F91E66.6060305@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.6 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain X-Headers-End: 1WCwCE-0005iT-GJ Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] MtGox blames bitcoin X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:07:12 -0000 If you've got any ideas for a better forum, let me know. MtGox is one of the largest public faces of the code being developed here. If the public perception is that this is a bitcoin protocol flaw, then we need some damned strong and compelling public arguments about why it ain't so. But after some thought, that's not the critical issue I want to raise on this list. If something about the implementation, the protocol, of bitcoin-qt or bitcoind makes it easy for an attacker to mutate transactions and hard for an 'end-user' such as MtGox to confirm payments, then we've got a fundamental user-interface flaw. We can get all indignant about RTFM or telling the users they are idiots, but that's not really going to be good for long-term adoption and use. My opinion is part of the development process should be to react to public perceptions of how the code is being used (and mis-used), and how the market is being manipulated, and try to improve it so the whole system is stable, predictable, and friendly to users. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 01:45:58PM -0500, Jameson Lopp wrote: > You have plenty of good points, but they are not relevant to this mailing list. I suggest you take them elsewhere. > -- > Jameson Lopp > Software Engineer > Bronto Software, Inc > > On 02/10/2014 01:25 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 08:45:03AM -0800, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > >>> Name me one single person with commit access to the bitcoin github repository > >>> who is *independent* of any venture capital or other 'investment' connections. > >> > >> I am, unless you count the fact that I own some Bitcoin and some > >> mining hardware as "'investment' connections" (and that case your > >> comments are worthless). > >> > >> (By not naming anyone else I don't mean to imply there are no others, > >> but I don't want to speak for anyone else. Nor would I necessarily > >> expect the other part(ies|y) to step forward, since this mostly > >> appears to be an invitation to step up and be attacked.) > > > > Thank you. > > > > I also appreciate your commentary[1], and willingness to list your investment > > position. What I'm concerned about are people who have signed non-disclosure > > agreements or who's salary/equity/whatever depend on people who are experts > > at manipulating markets to take naive investors money. > > > > Independent is also a state of mind as much as it is about financial connections. > > > > What pisses me off here is that a huge amount of wealth just changed hands based > > on MtGox's press release, and it stinks of insider trading. I still maintain the > > best outcome would be for MtGox to AGPLv3 release their code, and then those of > > us that understand it would be able to have a public technical discussion about > > how to fix it, and MtGox would still maintain their intellectual property > > ownership position. > > > > This, however, cuts off a significant revenue stream for people who take money > > making market bets 5 minutes before the information goes public, so I expect > > the likelyhood of such an outbreak of sanity is quite low. > > > > [1] http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/10/mt-gox-blames-bitcoin-core-developer-greg-maxwell-responds/ > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: I have a significant emotional investment in copyleft/viral copyright > > development models, and I expect to take a lot of money charging people to write > > code I give away for free. I also occasionally make money from cryptocurrency > > mining, but only when I can sell it in functional and transparent markets. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Android™ apps run on BlackBerry®10 > > Introducing the new BlackBerry 10.2.1 Runtime for Android apps. > > Now with support for Jelly Bean, Bluetooth, Mapview and more. > > Get your Android app in front of a whole new audience. Start now. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=124407151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Androi apps run on BlackBerry 10 > Introducing the new BlackBerry 10.2.1 Runtime for Android apps. > Now with support for Jelly Bean, Bluetooth, Mapview and more. > Get your Android app in front of a whole new audience. Start now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=124407151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development