From: Richard Hein <richard.hein@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 19:30:23 -0400
Message-Id: <AECFA9C4-DF1B-452A-8249-B7DAE0A67B19@gmail.com>
References: <CAES+R-qpBwXdROKnXW0idierJYf7pSRe3Z=KSYvcGwB_S6nXrA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAES+R-qpBwXdROKnXW0idierJYf7pSRe3Z=KSYvcGwB_S6nXrA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Patrick Sharp <psharp.x13@gmail.com>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] idea post: trimming and demurrage
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It kills Bitcoin as a store of value.  Disk space is not the problem; bandwi=
dth is.  The blockchain won't go to infinity as you suggest, as it is bounde=
d by certain constraints.  It's growth is a function of the transactions in a=
 block, and the number of blocks is linear in growth. =20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Patrick Sharp via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Devs,
>=20
> I am Patrick Sharp. I just graduated with a BS is computer science. Forgiv=
e my ignorance.
>=20
> As per bip-0002 I have scoured each bip available on the wiki to see if th=
ese ideas have already been formally proposed and now as per bip-0002 post t=
hese ideas here.
>=20
> First and foremost I acknowledge that these ideas are not original nor new=
.
>=20
> Trimming and demurrage:
>=20
> I am fully aware that demurrage is a prohibited change. I hereby contest. =
For the record I am not a miner, I am just aware of the economics that drive=
 the costs of bitcoin.
>=20
> Without the ability to maintain some sort of limit on the maximum length o=
r size of the block chain, block chain is not only unsustainable in the long=
 run but becomes more and more centralized as the block chain becomes more a=
nd more unwieldy.
>=20
> Trimming is not a foreign concept. Old block whose transactions are now sp=
ent hold no real value. Meaningful trimming is expensive and inhibited by un=
spent transactions. Old unspent transactions add unnecessary and unfair burd=
en.
> Old transactions take up real world space that continues incur cost while t=
hese transactions they do not continue to contribute to any sort of payment f=
or this cost.
> One can assume that anybody with access to their bitcoins has the power to=
 move these bitcoins from one address to another (or at least that the softw=
are that holds the keys to their coins can do it for them) and it is not unf=
air to require them to do so at least once every 5 to 10 years.
> Given the incentive to move it or lose it and software that will do it for=
 them, we can assume that any bitcoin not moved is most likey therefore lost=
.
> moving these coins will cost a small transaction fee which is fair as thei=
r transactions take up space, they need to contribute
> most people who use their coins regularly will not even need to worry abou=
t this as their coins are moved to a change address anyway.
> one downside is that paper wallets would then have an expiration date, how=
ever I do not think that a paper wallet that needs to be recycled every 5 to=
 10 years is a terrible idea.
> Therefore I propose that the block chain length be limited to either 2^18 b=
locks (slightly less than 5 years) or 2^19 blocks, or slightly less than 10 y=
ears. I propose that each time a block is mined the the oldest block(s) (no m=
ore than two blocks) beyond this limit is trimmed from the chain and that it=
s unspent transactions are allowed to be included in the reward of the mined=
 block.
>=20
> This keeps the block chain from tending towards infinity. This keeps the c=
osts of the miners balanced with the costs of the users.
>=20
> Even though I believe this idea will have some friction, it is applicable t=
o the entire community. It will be hard for some users to give up small bene=
fits that they get at the great cost of miners, however miners run the game a=
nd this fair proposal is in in their best interest in two different ways. I w=
ould like your thoughts and suggestions. I obviously think this is a freakin=
g awesome idea. I know it is quite controversial but it is the next step in e=
volution that bitcoin needs to take to ensure immortality.
>=20
> I come to you to ask if this has any chance of acceptance.
>=20
> -Patrick
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>It kills Bitcoin as a store of value. &=
nbsp;Disk space is not the problem; bandwidth is. &nbsp;The blockchain won't=
 go to infinity as you suggest, as it is bounded by certain constraints. &nb=
sp;It's growth is a function of the transactions in a block, and the number o=
f blocks is linear in growth. &nbsp;<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><b=
r>On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Patrick Sharp via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Hello Devs,</span><div style=3D"font-=
size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I am Patrick Sharp. I=
 just graduated with a BS is computer science. Forgive my ignorance.</div><d=
iv style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">As p=
er bip-0002 I have scoured each bip available on the wiki to see if these id=
eas have already been formally proposed and now as per bip-0002 post these i=
deas here.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px">First and foremost I acknowledge that these ideas are not orig=
inal nor new.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px"><div>Trimming and demurrage:</div><div><br></div><div>I am f=
ully aware that demurrage is a prohibited change. I hereby contest. For the r=
ecord I am not a miner, I am just aware of the economics that drive the cost=
s of bitcoin.</div><div><br></div><div>Without the ability to maintain some s=
ort of limit on the maximum length or size of the block chain, block chain i=
s not only unsustainable in the long run but becomes more and more centraliz=
ed as the block chain becomes more and more unwieldy.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Trimming is not a foreign concept. Old block whose transactions are now s=
pent hold no real value. Meaningful trimming is expensive and inhibited by u=
nspent transactions. Old unspent transactions add unnecessary and unfair bur=
den.</div><div><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Old transactions take up r=
eal world space that continues incur cost while these transactions they do n=
ot continue to contribute to any sort of payment for this cost.<br></li><li s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:15px">One can assume that anybody with access to their b=
itcoins has the power to move these bitcoins from one address to another (or=
 at least that the software that holds the keys to their coins can do it for=
 them) and it is not unfair to require them to do so at least once every 5 t=
o 10 years.<br></li><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Given the incentive t=
o move it or lose it and software that will do it for them, we can assume th=
at any bitcoin not moved is most likey therefore lost.</li><li style=3D"marg=
in-left:15px">moving these coins will cost a small transaction fee which is f=
air as their transactions take up space, they need to contribute</li><li sty=
le=3D"margin-left:15px">most people who use their coins regularly will not e=
ven need to worry about this as their coins are moved to a change address an=
yway.</li></ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">one downside is that paper wal=
lets would then have an expiration date, however I do not think that a paper=
 wallet that needs to be recycled every 5 to 10 years is a terrible idea.</l=
i></ul>Therefore I propose that the block chain length be limited to either 2=
^18 blocks (slightly less than 5 years) or 2^19 blocks, or slightly less tha=
n 10 years. I propose that each time a block is mined the the oldest block(s=
) (no more than two blocks) beyond this limit is trimmed from the chain and t=
hat its unspent transactions are allowed to be included in the reward of the=
 mined block.</div></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.8px">This keeps the block chain from tending towards infin=
ity. This keeps the costs of the miners balanced with the costs of the users=
.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.=
8px"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Even though&nbsp;I believe this i=
dea will have some friction, it is applicable to the entire community. It wi=
ll be hard for some users to give up small benefits that they get at the gre=
at cost of miners, however miners run the game and this fair proposal is in i=
n their best interest in two different ways. I would like your thoughts and s=
uggestions. I obviously think this is a freaking awesome idea. I know it is q=
uite controversial&nbsp;but it is the next step in evolution that bitcoin ne=
eds to take to ensure immortality.</span></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8p=
x"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I come to you to ask if this ha=
s any chance of acceptance.</div></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br><=
/div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">-Patrick</div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev mailing list</span><=
br><span><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation=
.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></=
html>=

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