Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 11:13:28 +0000
From: nullius <nullius@nym.zone>
To: =?utf-8?B?5pyo44OO5LiL44GY44KH44Gq?= <kinoshitajona@gmail.com>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <eb643e5734bceeb918d116fb75c0d4b3@nym.zone>
References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone>
	<d05bfa26-4f3d-77d1-5801-9ad59497f334@satoshilabs.com>
	<CACvEmnGcN+VtgK0MeRPBevRoMkyJrMOBQKLZP4NnLBc5+q8Cyg@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tiyijc4s364zh5hl"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CACvEmnGcN+VtgK0MeRPBevRoMkyJrMOBQKLZP4NnLBc5+q8Cyg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
 wordlists
Precedence: list


--tiyijc4s364zh5hl
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=
=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com>=20
wrote:
>This is very sad.
>
>The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>
>I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because=20
>he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for=20
>"amateur"...
>
>[...]
>
>If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain=20
>processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down. =
=20
>Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for=20
>letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>
>[...]
>
>Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to=20
>plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.

Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please,=20
let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.

I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust=20
*their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this=20
down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in:

=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3=
=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=
=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3=
=81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80=
=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=
=E3=81=A4

(Approximate translation:  =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had be=
en=20
invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)

No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking=20
about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=80=
=99s=20
savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:

=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=
=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=
=E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=
=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=
=93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=
=E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=
=81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=
=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91

Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands? =20
No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the=20
inverse case.

----

If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many=20
Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then=20
think of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate=20
family and friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your =
folks=20
needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=
=9D.

In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at =
all.  A=20
=E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholly al=
ien writing=20
system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. =20
The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D fo=
r =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D,=20
was not dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world=E2=80=99s most=
=20
inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.

----

I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=A5=E6=
=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an=20
appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese=20
users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?

I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the=20
greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent=20
implementations.  =E2=80=94  I asked, because obviously, I myself do not sp=
eak=20
all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*

Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,=20
nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.

Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism=20
of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other=20
languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of=20
=E2=80=9CEnglish only!=E2=80=9D

Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever=20
implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially=20
restricted to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a=20
standard called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordli=
sts, and four=20
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).

I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for=20
use with that standard.

(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. =20
I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.  I=20
thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually=20
fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It should=20
go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)

--=20
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth=
ing to hide.=E2=80=99
No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
 nullius

--tiyijc4s364zh5hl
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQSNOMR84IlYpr/EF5vEJ5MVn575SQUCWlNSWAAKCRDEJ5MVn575
SUsVAQD+Mf6VjbieemTuEBfuYFfXAj47tCqWWJHi+hbjIjT/ywEA28VRU3OR+4da
jP7vdaMOc1gQwvJwuIggec0rBKHcpQY=
=Nqo7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--tiyijc4s364zh5hl--