Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6YEy-00061g-0x for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 05:56:24 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-pa0-f47.google.com ([209.85.220.47]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Z6YEv-00022L-Rs for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 05:56:24 +0000 Received: by pacyo7 with SMTP id yo7so8790953pac.2 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 22:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j0Tk/XcCTp77pAPoQpAsQwhVzIVzsyComxvSJnUufMA=; b=SalyQcqFdATU1KA+7zu23rsRl5sgcuDapVdDTsLTUY2ChqoVL9n38S3KMccstkVibL WI/YNpRNMIl0hC6o6DHHKuqLDBJdaO3DbmhshwUjmGeQawQJEq/7YII5HQoGfu4ZPltr mjzw/m1tiim41m45jVMvFQSPTDjuwADzaoOELw58VJECtY4sS8XP1/7Xn2E90RmHQeY+ AAXJoRTwofkz2ETG8HyjFzzwGXwrgfAqT6q/Oeg5qvFbc4dvDLhb1B571xuK8OFcuMSE 5LdJOWIa7+6oDeQXZqxHUfsiz5ShED2pNUGbK9iXQSf6tbmYkHxtHdY2Xw0XBJhWB1pD oCcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmxDte1wbWkC32BlZKvnZAdlFG5VSN/krJaJh+eO54vn02ivgruo8GV4lUZZBdFQ6gZRs7X X-Received: by 10.70.128.13 with SMTP id nk13mr46522741pdb.21.1434866176114; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 22:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.89] (99-8-65-117.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net. [99.8.65.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id si7sm15797718pbc.54.2015.06.20.22.56.13 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Jun 2015 22:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <558651FD.1010308@thinlink.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 22:56:13 -0700 From: Tom Harding User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Lombrozo References: <20150619103959.GA32315@savin.petertodd.org> <04CE3756-B032-464C-8FBD-7ACDD1A3197D@gmail.com> <812d8353e66637ec182da31bc0a9aac1@riseup.net> <1727885.UUNByX4Jyd@crushinator> <83A7C606-B601-47D2-BE10-2A1412D97514@gmail.com> <8a49c53a032503eeca4f51cdef725fe1@riseup.net> <6d025db96e7aec4e6e47a76883a9a1e3@riseup.net> <70534C5D-8834-42B5-B495-FD9975E8FCF4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <70534C5D-8834-42B5-B495-FD9975E8FCF4@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.2 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1Z6YEv-00022L-Rs Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 05:56:24 -0000 On 6/20/2015 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo wrote: > Perhaps it isn=92t prudent to push out changes to the relay policy that= make these exploits even easier right now - but we NEED to be applying s= ome kind of pressure on the merchant end to upgrade their stuff to be mor= e resilient so that we have more room for changes on things like relay po= licy without significant disruption to the network. > There's no need to worry about causing more problems by relaying double-spends. After a year of watching, it's clear that already only 20% of hash power strictly obeys first-seen. http://i.imgur.com/0bYXrjn.png It may be surprising that - The period of ambiguity is very short - just 2 seconds (this makes sense, given the .5s median propagation time) - Fast double-spends between 2 and 15 seconds are less successful - The steady-state 80% respend success rate is reached after just 15 seconds The >30s data point includes txes that were respent after a long time, sometimes months. Those longer-term respends are to be expected, as people reclaim stuck txes. Paying attention to double-spends is an opportunity for wallets and merchants . With 140 Bitcoin XT nodes online, you're probably already receiving them. Most wallets, including vanilla core, don't even alert when a double-spend of a wallet transaction appears in a block - even though there may still be time to withhold delivery of the goods/services= =2E If FSS RBF gains miner share, fewer successful zero-conf double-spends will occur. Only radical twisted logic finds that to be an undesirable result.