MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <554F9720.4040105@phauna.org>
References: <16096345.A1MpJQQkRW@crushinator>
	<CAOG=w-szbLgc1jLpkE_uMa3bkFTi-RiBEaQ6Y-u5aKLBC2HvUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAS2fgQRS7w7RRNXVK_+=4CQ7=AWxWQQ7+Tf4tNUPTTZOf7rEQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<554F9720.4040105@phauna.org>
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 11:10:47 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOG=w-ths+Jay-LRS+upSL95YSNXmjEEh1ZS28yvGfNnpBouHQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>
To: Owen Gunden <ogunden@phauna.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135ffb83e92f10515be2e14
Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step
	function
Precedence: list

--001a1135ffb83e92f10515be2e14
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Micropayment channels are not pie in the sky proposals. They work today on
Bitcoin as it is deployed without any changes. People just need to start
using them.
On May 10, 2015 11:03, "Owen Gunden" <ogunden@phauna.org> wrote:

> On 05/08/2015 11:36 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > Another related point which has been tendered before but seems to have
> > been ignored is that changing how the size limit is computed can help
> > better align incentives and thus reduce risk.  E.g. a major cost to the
> > network is the UTXO impact of transactions, but since the limit is blind
> > to UTXO impact a miner would gain less income if substantially factoring
> > UTXO impact into its fee calculations; and without fee impact users have
> > little reason to optimize their UTXO behavior.
>
> Along the lines of aligning incentives with a diversity of costs to a
> variety of network participants, I am curious about reactions to Justus'
> general approach:
>
>
> http://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2015/02/09/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-2-price-discovery/
>
> I realize it relies on pie-in-the-sky ideas like micropayment channels,
> but I wonder if it's a worthy long-term ideal direction for this stuff.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

--001a1135ffb83e92f10515be2e14
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Micropayment channels are not pie in the sky proposals. They=
 work today on Bitcoin as it is deployed without any changes. People just n=
eed to start using them.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On May 10, 2015 11:03, &quot;Owen Gunden&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ogunden@phauna.org">ogunden@phauna.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 05/08/2015 11:36 =
PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:<br>
&gt; Another related point which has been tendered before but seems to have=
<br>
&gt; been ignored is that changing how the size limit is computed can help<=
br>
&gt; better align incentives and thus reduce risk.=C2=A0 E.g. a major cost =
to the<br>
&gt; network is the UTXO impact of transactions, but since the limit is bli=
nd<br>
&gt; to UTXO impact a miner would gain less income if substantially factori=
ng<br>
&gt; UTXO impact into its fee calculations; and without fee impact users ha=
ve<br>
&gt; little reason to optimize their UTXO behavior.<br>
<br>
Along the lines of aligning incentives with a diversity of costs to a<br>
variety of network participants, I am curious about reactions to Justus&#39=
;<br>
general approach:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2015/02/09/economic-fallacies-and-t=
he-block-size-limit-part-2-price-discovery/" target=3D"_blank">http://bitco=
inism.liberty.me/2015/02/09/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-par=
t-2-price-discovery/</a><br>
<br>
I realize it relies on pie-in-the-sky ideas like micropayment channels,<br>
but I wonder if it&#39;s a worthy long-term ideal direction for this stuff.=
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud<br=
>
Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications<br>
Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights<br=
>
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.<br>
<a href=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y" target=
=3D"_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--001a1135ffb83e92f10515be2e14--