Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A644C000B for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 03:42:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616C540911 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 03:42:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8KnuBtuulHGJ for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 03:42:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E351C400FB for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 03:42:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id c15so10742022ljf.11 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:42:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0ga9nWRK/5r1vfu9ihObNZUQjzChs5zo1WgTmuLE5vE=; b=C7C4ExaMSTKL9wVUKNFPTsLWujcus8era4KuLxm2rfv3O3HutxNW3Ama9G96aQtw+D HZ0HLa+psV28sqSbKIrvPt3rNPq4FYJQ7Hjd9C/bFSve1ZGqm9Lbyr2X/Q1iLzipEMfV c5dpGNAM7su+A6cBtjJXVX4iicyElcO3+K9FROA/kzLqzYUEjSU1BVGPT+M/NUiKijJ8 PsC416/tBrk7y1Lq+Zv2CZvvhFYxCbwV179SIg9MB787dLEz+1MYH5WtUBG8QBcxQ/kJ /4tKqXAozDgseIyPPrSdJ9BL/Qm6SjEKmEdCsKHeMOhbFO2PD6aIhnBGxkNdDu8fzuVe cCnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0ga9nWRK/5r1vfu9ihObNZUQjzChs5zo1WgTmuLE5vE=; b=PR/Rd8L/i0Zq6zJJQthbsCo76pHWbXe9b3LxAsp+25w0LGhrCTIf0uuTO9bWg4mkC5 41JgZ9F1LZULHVZwwN8HZtCmxtHHsqZWkAttRbIlI77UjA1HEz3ZG1J9YqcwIH+kMlG8 usmaAjBIGKj5hJcaxBAjRv10b0HjjE3vUDrfit3vMRVdMVBsOnr6p0YLFmkBV0C5j6Tn zS3sX+tMKE1NwJHyjZa7dvhVbpfCpPl69CnfCUalosS5z8hX8Ng5DgttCWXpkHHcihw9 L3oTNLqB8WH5hzmSgdLVnx4YmPqv4k9SuAAFFkykrftc+Els9fF9bBoEOkAyGotdhVCY NjfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nTBi0/a0p/3IsqquP7dZ44DdxhYGxX/X98K/C1pMwFKHJ6lPw aK4ZOjHktRmUnOqbwNFfFevPj9InUvT5s0QHVr5j4K60 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4pn/veiraf8BVhHFjj+6J/SyPss+04rytAQBXXzJHC8hXapAKzJVE2cfUGcHgeLgZLDeRt2m8x3ZeWxB8b0w= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:834c:: with SMTP id l12mr6923213ljh.81.1644550933608; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:42:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87leymuiu8.fsf@rustcorp.com.au> <0100017ee6472e02-037d355d-4c16-43b0-81d2-4a82b580ba99-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <0100017ee6472e02-037d355d-4c16-43b0-81d2-4a82b580ba99-000000@email.amazonses.com> From: Jeremy Rubin Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:42:02 -0800 Message-ID: To: "David A. Harding" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000367f7e05d7b5da0c" Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was Re: TXHASH + CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY in lieu of CTV and ANYPREVOUT X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 03:42:17 -0000 --000000000000367f7e05d7b5da0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't have a specific response to share at this moment, but I may make one later. But for the sake of elevating the discourse, I'd encourage people responding this to read through https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/04/advent-7/ as I think it has some helpful terminology and categorizations. I bring this up because I think that recursion is often given as a shorthand for "powerful" because the types of operations that support recursion typically also introduce open ended covenants, unless they are designed specially not to. As a trivial example a covenant that makes a coin spendable from itself to itself entirely with no authorization is recursive but fully enumerated in a sense and not particularly interesting or useful. Therefore when responding you might be careful to distinguish if it is just recursion which you take issue with or open ended or some combination of properties which severally might be acceptable. TL;DR there are different properties people might care about that get lumped in with recursion, it's good to be explicit if it is a recursion issue or something else. Cheers, Jeremy On Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:55 PM David A. Harding wrote: > On Mon, Feb 07, 2022 at 08:34:30PM -0800, Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > Whether [recursive covenants] is an issue or not precluding this sort > > of design or not, I defer to others. > > For reference, I believe the last time the merits of allowing recursive > covenants was discussed at length on this list[1], not a single person > replied to say that they were opposed to the idea. > > I would like to suggest that anyone opposed to recursive covenants speak > for themselves (if any intelligent such people exist). Citing the risk > of recursive covenants without presenting a credible argument for the > source of that risk feels to me like (at best) stop energy[2] and (at > worst) FUD. > > -Dave > > [1] > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-July/019203.html > [2] > http://radio-weblogs.com/0107584/stories/2002/05/05/stopEnergyByDaveWiner.html > (thanks to AJ who told me about stop energy one time when I was > producing it) > > --000000000000367f7e05d7b5da0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't have a specific response to share at this mom= ent, but I may make one later.

But for the sake of elevating the discourse, I'd encourage people resp= onding this to read through=C2=A0https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/04/advent-7/ as I thin= k it has some helpful terminology and categorizations.

I bring this up because I think that recursi= on is often given as a shorthand for "powerful" because the types= of operations that support recursion typically also introduce open ended c= ovenants, unless they are designed specially not to. As a trivial example a= covenant that makes a coin spendable from itself to itself entirely with n= o authorization is recursive but fully enumerated in a sense and not partic= ularly interesting or useful.

Therefore when responding you might be careful to distinguish if it i= s just recursion which you take issue with or open ended or some combinatio= n of properties which severally might be acceptable.

TL;DR there are different properties people mi= ght care about that get lumped in with recursion, it's good to be expli= cit if it is a recursion issue or something else.
Cheers,

Jeremy


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