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From: Jimmy Song <jaejoon@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 21:19:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJR7vkqSLkLDv+y8D+aFC4pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal
To: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= <jose.edil@gmail.com>, 
	Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on the original
proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical
"news" site. He's trolling the list.

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@g=
mail.com>
wrote:

> Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherei=
n
> they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the
> feerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their block
> template. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose
> to not take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the
> transaction or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could en=
d
> up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this
> without a consensus fork if there was appetite for it.
>
> However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and
> it is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees =
on
> the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where
> they lose fees to the competition.
>
> Keags
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de M=
edeiros <
> jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin
>> thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted =
to
>> stress the concept.
>>
>> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from
>> transactions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since =
the
>> sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subseque=
nt
>> transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them?
>>
>> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simpl=
e
>> p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean t=
o
>> authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can on=
ly
>> be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key.
>>
>> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax
>> to be implemented?
>>
>> All the best.
>> --
>> E...
>>
>> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone,
>>
>> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the
>> network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network.
>>
>> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit
>> tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move the=
ir
>> coins, providing increased security to the network.
>>
>> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n
>> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-754=
9b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-75=
49b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>> <hodltax.md>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n
>> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F00=
823A94C3D%40gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F0=
0823A94C3D%40gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>>
> --
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQB=
084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQ=
B084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=
=3Dfooter>
> .
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">For those that haven&#39;t figured this out yet, the name on=
 the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a=
 satirical &quot;news&quot; site. He&#39;s trolling the list.</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu=
, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keag=
an.mcclelland@gmail.com">keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hypothetically miners cou=
ld attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein they consider the age of =
the utxo being spent and factor that into the feerate they consider when ac=
cepting the transaction into their block template. However this would be an=
 opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not take this into consideration=
 when making the choice to mine the transaction or not. If enough hashpower=
 adopted this policy, you could end up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This =
also means that you can do this without a consensus fork if there was appet=
ite for it.<div><br></div><div>However, I suspect there will be extreme res=
istance to this proposal and it is unlikely that miners would intentionally=
 leave otherwise-good fees on the table simply because they want to play pr=
isoners dilemma games where they lose fees to the competition.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Keags</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Ed=
il Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jose.edil@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">jose.edil@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Not=
 sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin thing=
, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted to stres=
s the concept.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Since the value &quot;tokens&quot; =
in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transactions that have not been spen=
t in another transaction, and since the sole purpose of the utxos are to at=
omically serve as input to a subsequent transaction, how do you proposed to=
 &quot;tax&quot; them?</div><div><br></div><div>I mean, let&#39;s say someo=
ne sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simple p2pkh transaction with t=
he address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean to authorize it as an input =
to a new transaction. In principle, that can only be done by me producing a=
 valid signature using a private key.</div><div><br></div><div>Let&#39;s sa=
y I&#39;m one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax to be i=
mplemented?</div><div><br></div><div>All the best.=C2=A0<br id=3D"m_7527663=
708373658711m_-8171199284076287391lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">--<div>E...</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te">On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thebitco=
inbugle@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">thebitcoinbugle@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFHi everyone,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It has becom=
e apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the network holding =
their coins, are not adding value to the network. <br><br></div><div>As min=
ers continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit tremendously =
from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move their coins, provid=
ing increased security to the network.=C2=A0<br><br>I have written out a pr=
oposal more in depth and is attached below.=C2=A0</div>

<p></p>

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<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.=
com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-9=
2fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
<div>&lt;hodltax.md&gt;</div></div></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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23A94C3D%40gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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L2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

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