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From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:05:56 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJowKg+HM6Z44rOVrS0_g=GdzWPZVwggxgQYGPTBrZDir5W4Hw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000027d59405dd8e5b91"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial
Precedence: list

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- it occurs to me that the real problem we have isn't whether miners lead
or users lead.   we know that users lead, we just need miners to be "ready"
and have time to upgrade their software

 - in the case of "evil" forks, i also don't need or want miners to
"defend" bitcoin... (if bitcoin is so broken that a bad fork gets past all
of the users, the miners have lost their purpose, so that is a fallacy of
reification and should be ignored)

 - we cannot measure user consensus in any systematic way, or else we
resort to gaming the system or centralization

    - wallet votes (sign a message signalling... ), can cause
centralization pressures
    - node signals (node published signal) will be sybil attacked
    - eyeballs... (lol)

 - can we all agree that this verbal and social wrangling and chest
pounding seems, right now, to remain the best system of achieving
consensus?  or can we do better?


On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 1:42 AM Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:26:09AM -0600, Keagan McClelland via
> bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > > Semi-mandatory in that only "threshold" blocks must signal, so if
> >     only 4% or 9% of miners aren't signalling and the threshold is set
> >     at 95% or 90%, no blocks will be orphaned.
> > How do nodes decide on which blocks are orphaned if only some of them
> have
> > to signal, and others don't? Is it just any block that would cause the
> > whole threshold period to fail?
>
> Yes, exactly those. See [0] or [1].
>
> [0]
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0008.mediawiki#Mandatory_signalling
>
> [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1021
>     (err, you apparently acked that PR)
>
> Cheers,
> aj
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">- it occurs to me that the real problem we have isn&#39;t =
whether miners lead or users lead.=C2=A0 =C2=A0we know that users lead, we =
just need miners to be &quot;ready&quot; and have time to upgrade their sof=
tware<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- in the case of &quot;evil&quot; forks, i a=
lso don&#39;t need or want miners to &quot;defend&quot; bitcoin... (if bitc=
oin is so broken that a bad fork gets past all of the users, the miners hav=
e lost their purpose, so that is a fallacy of reification and should be ign=
ored)<br><br>=C2=A0- we cannot measure user consensus in any systematic way=
, or else we resort to gaming the system or centralization=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - wallet votes (sign a message signalling... )=
, can cause centralization pressures</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - node signals=
 (node published signal) will be sybil attacked</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - e=
yeballs... (lol)</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- can we all agree that thi=
s verbal and social wrangling and chest pounding seems, right now, to remai=
n the best system of achieving consensus?=C2=A0 or can we do better?</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br><br></div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 1:42 AM Anthon=
y Towns via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:2=
6:09AM -0600, Keagan McClelland via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Semi-mandatory in that only &quot;threshold&quot; blocks must sig=
nal, so if<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only 4% or 9% of miners aren&#39;t signalling and t=
he threshold is set<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at 95% or 90%, no blocks will be orphaned.<br>
&gt; How do nodes decide on which blocks are orphaned if only some of them =
have<br>
&gt; to signal, and others don&#39;t? Is it just any block that would cause=
 the<br>
&gt; whole threshold period to fail?<br>
<br>
Yes, exactly those. See [0] or [1].<br>
<br>
[0] <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0008.mediawi=
ki#Mandatory_signalling" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://githu=
b.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0008.mediawiki#Mandatory_signalling</a><=
br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1021" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1021</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (err, you apparently acked that PR)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
aj<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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