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References: <MibU_fn--3-2@tutanota.de>
In-Reply-To: <MibU_fn--3-2@tutanota.de>
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 16:20:21 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJowKgLX=9FVAWsSBdxwzopR=+81mVjZH0o1=MHJd7ebvrXsbA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Drivechain: BIP 300 and 301
Precedence: list

drivechain is a cool proposal.   i don't think there's a ton of
obvious risk to the network itself (not slow, not too much work for
nodes, etc), but it seems to encourage "bad behavior", not sure the
incentives line up to prevent thefts, and not sure that won't turn
around and bite bitcoin's main chain.

of course stacks can do this even without drivechain, so not sure what
we're hiding from there

if you're talking about extensions there's lightning-compatible
mimblewimble, which is probably more important, since it gets bitcoin
to global-scale payments, while improving fungibility, and probably
can't be implemented safely via drivechain


On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:24 PM Prayank via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> printf("Hello, World!");
>
> What are your thoughts on Drivechain and associated BIPs?
>
> This article compares Liquid and Lightning: https://blog.liquid.net/six-d=
ifferences-between-liquid-and-lightning/. Two things from it that I am inte=
rested in while evaluating Drivechain:
>
> 1.Trust model
> 2.On-Ramps and Off-Ramps
>
> Other things:
>
> 1.Security of Bitcoin (Layer 1)
> 2.Bitcoin transactions and fees expected on layer 1 because of Drivechain
>
> Similarities and Differences between RSK and Ethereum: https://medium.com=
/iovlabs-innovation-stories/similarities-and-differences-between-rsk-and-et=
hereum-e480655eff37
>
> Paul Sztorc had mentioned few things about fees in this video: https://yo=
utu.be/oga8Pwbq9M0?t=3D481 I am interested to know same for LN, Liquid and =
Rootstock as well so asked a question on Bitcoin Stackexchange today: https=
://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/109466/bitcoin-transactions-associat=
ed-with-layer-2-projects
>
> Two critiques are mentioned here: https://www.drivechain.info/peer-review=
/peer-review-new/ with lot of names. I don't agree with everything mentione=
d on project website although any comments on technical things that can hel=
p Bitcoin and Bitcoin projects will be great.
>
> Why discuss here and not on Twitter?
>
> 1.Twitter is not the best place for such discussions. There are some inte=
resting threads but Its mostly used for followers, likes, retweets etc. and=
 people can write anything for it.
> 2.Avoid misinformation, controversies etc.
>
> My personal opinion:
>
> We should encourage sidechain projects. I don't know much about Drivechai=
n to form a strong opinion but concept looks good which can help in making =
better sidechains.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------
>
>
> The website used in the slides of above YouTube video is misleading for f=
ew reasons:
>
> 1.Blocks mined everyday (in MB) for Bitcoin is ~150 MB. It is ~600 MB for=
 Ethereum. Block limits for Bitcoin is ~4 MB per 10 minutes and ~500 MB for=
 Ethereum. If full nodes will be run by few organizations on AWS we can bas=
ically do everything on chain. However the main goal isn't too make money a=
nd create an illusion to do something innovative, primary goal was/is decen=
tralized network that allows settlement of payments.
>
> 2.Bitcoin uses UTXO model while Ethereum uses Account model. Basic differ=
ence in transactions for two is explained in an article https://coinmetrics=
.io/on-data-and-certainty/. Irony is the website in the slides for screensh=
ot is using Coinmetrics API and this misleading website is even shared by C=
oinmetrics team on Twitter. So in some cases you are doing more transaction=
s, paying more fees for work which could have been done with less. Ineffici=
ency.
>
> 3.Failed transactions paying fees on Ethereum everyday, no such transacti=
ons on Bitcoin.
>
> 4.Other improvements that affect fees: Segwit, Layer 2, Batching, UTXO co=
nsolidation, Fee estimation, Coin selection, Exchanges, Wallets etc.
>
>
> --
> Prayank
>
> A3B1 E430 2298 178F
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