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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 23:48:33 -0500
Message-ID: <CAF_2MyXhhZyHSekOR0uTKndt8onEHqTJGnZwWFXoHw6xngidPA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ryan Butler <rryananizer@gmail.com>
To: Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff252ac61e861051c106ac2
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev]
	=?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A_Personal_opinion_on_the_f?=
	=?utf-8?q?ee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?=
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I shouldn't have said unlimited, i should have said a greater blocksize
limit such as 8mb.

Anyways, why is that the assumption?  If a miner can do so, and do so
profitably, isn't that just competition?  Isn't that what we want?  If a
miner can mine low transaction fees at a profit then don't they deserve to
have their spot?  Surely if they do so unprofitably they quickly find
themselves out of business?  Besides, if a miner mines low fee transactions
by breaking rank, how does this affect another miner EXCEPT for the
additional blocksize load.  I would maintain this is just competition
amongst miners gentlemen.  And it's a good thing.

Right now things are distorted because most income comes from the coinbase,
but as transaction fees start to constitute the majority of income this
idea seems to have more importance.
On Jul 29, 2015 11:00 PM, "Adam Back" <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:

> On 29 July 2015 at 20:41, Ryan Butler via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market?  Isn't every
> > miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance
> > algorithm?
>
> The assumption is that wont work because any miner can break ranks and
> do so profitably, so to expect otherwise is to expect oligopoly
> behaviour which is the sort of antithesis of a decentralised mining
> system.  It's in fact a similar argument as to why decentralisation of
> mining provides policy neutrality: some miner somewhere with some
> hashrate will process your transaction even if some other miners are
> by policy deciding not to mine it.  It is also similar reason why free
> transactions are processed today - policies vary and this is good for
> ensuring many types of transaction get processed.
>
> Adam
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">I shouldn&#39;t have said unlimited, i should have said a gr=
eater blocksize limit such as 8mb.=C2=A0 </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Anyways, why is that the assumption?=C2=A0 If a miner can do=
 so, and do so profitably, isn&#39;t that just competition?=C2=A0 Isn&#39;t=
 that what we want?=C2=A0 If a miner can mine low transaction fees at a pro=
fit then don&#39;t they deserve to have their spot?=C2=A0 Surely if they do=
 so unprofitably they quickly find themselves out of business?=C2=A0 Beside=
s, if a miner mines low fee transactions by breaking rank, how does this af=
fect another miner EXCEPT for the additional blocksize load.=C2=A0 I would =
maintain this is just competition amongst miners gentlemen.=C2=A0 And it=
9;s a good thing.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Right now things are distorted because most income comes fro=
m the coinbase, but as transaction fees start to constitute the majority of=
 income this idea seems to have more importance.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 29, 2015 11:00 PM, &quot;Adam Back&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">adam@cypherspace.org</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 29 July 2015=
 at 20:41, Ryan Butler via bitcoin-dev<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market?=C2=A0 Isn&=
#39;t every<br>
&gt; miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance=
<br>
&gt; algorithm?<br>
<br>
The assumption is that wont work because any miner can break ranks and<br>
do so profitably, so to expect otherwise is to expect oligopoly<br>
behaviour which is the sort of antithesis of a decentralised mining<br>
system.=C2=A0 It&#39;s in fact a similar argument as to why decentralisatio=
n of<br>
mining provides policy neutrality: some miner somewhere with some<br>
hashrate will process your transaction even if some other miners are<br>
by policy deciding not to mine it.=C2=A0 It is also similar reason why free=
<br>
transactions are processed today - policies vary and this is good for<br>
ensuring many types of transaction get processed.<br>
<br>
Adam<br>
</blockquote></div>

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