Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFE2171F for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:14:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 01:00:00 by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from st13p11im-asmtp001.me.com (st13p11im-asmtp001.me.com [17.164.40.160]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F203A19E for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:14:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (dyn1147-105.insecure.ic.ac.uk [129.31.147.105]) by st13p11im-asmtp001.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NRY00BROAJGTP20@st13p11im-asmtp001.me.com> for bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:14:07 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151,1.0.33,0.0.0000 definitions=2015-07-23_08:2015-07-22, 2015-07-23, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1412110000 definitions=main-1507230232 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_899BB622-658E-4B96-A76A-79D7F0219E96" From: Robert Learney X-Priority: 3 In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:14:06 +0100 Message-id: References: <55B113AF.40500@thinlink.com> To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:14:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_899BB622-658E-4B96-A76A-79D7F0219E96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 That=E2=80=99s not exactly what=E2=80=99s happened though, is it Cipher? = Gavin put forward 20Mb then after analysis and discussion has moved to = 8Mb, whereas the other camp of core developers is firmly stuck in the = =E2=80=981Mb or bust=E2=80=99 group. -Rob. > On 23 Jul 2015, at 17:50, cipher anthem via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >=20 > Why not help on a project that actually seems to offer great = scalability like the lightning network? There have been great progress = there. > =20 > Seems like you did your calculations some time ago to prove that your = increase is reasonable, yet when others come with different numbers that = don't support your position you say it doesn't matter. > =20 > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 4:28 PM > From: "Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev" = > To: "Tom Harding" > Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks > On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev = > wrote: > On 7/23/2015 5:17 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > they will simply advance the front and start another battle, because > > their true hidden faction is the "not ever side". Please, Jeff, = Gavin, > > Mike, show me that I'm wrong on this point. Please, answer my = question > > this time. If "not now", then when? >=20 > Bitcoin has all the hash power. The merkle root has effectively > infinite capacity. We should be asking HOW to scale the supporting > information propagation system appropriately, not WHEN to limit the > capacity of the primary time-stamping machine. >=20 > We haven't tried yet. I can't answer for the people you asked, but > personally I haven't thought much about when we should declare = failure. > =20 > Yes! Lets plan for success! > =20 > I'd really like to move from "IMPOSSIBLE because... (electrum hasn't = been optimized > (by the way: you should run on SSDs, LevelDB isn't designed for = spinning disks), > what if the network is attacked? (attacked HOW???), current p2p = network is using > the simplest, stupidest possible block propagation algorithm...)" > =20 > ... to "lets work together and work through the problems and scale it = up." > =20 > I'm frankly tired of all the negativity here; so tired of it I've = decided to mostly ignore > all the debate for a while, not respond to misinformation I see being = spread > (like "miners have some incentive to create slow-to-propagate = blocks"), > work with people like Tom and Mike who have a 'lets get it done' = attitude, and > focus on what it will take to scale up. > =20 > -- > -- > Gavin Andresen > =20 > _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing = list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = __________= _____________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail=_899BB622-658E-4B96-A76A-79D7F0219E96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 That=E2=80=99s not exactly what=E2=80=99s happened though, is = it Cipher? Gavin put forward 20Mb then after analysis and discussion has = moved to 8Mb, whereas the other camp of core developers is firmly stuck = in the =E2=80=981Mb or bust=E2=80=99 group.

-Rob.

On = 23 Jul 2015, at 17:50, cipher anthem via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

Why not help on a project that actually seems to offer = great scalability like the lightning network? There have been great = progress there.
 
Seems like you did your calculations some time ago to = prove that your increase is reasonable, yet when others come with = different numbers that don't support your position you say it doesn't = matter.
 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 4:28 PM
From: "Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
To: "Tom Harding" <tomh@thinlink.com>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard = forks
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Tom Harding = via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On 7/23/2015 5:17 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via = bitcoin-dev wrote:
> they will simply advance the front and start = another battle, because
> their true hidden faction is the "not ever side". Please, Jeff, = Gavin,
> Mike, show me that I'm wrong on this point. Please, answer my = question
> this time. If "not now", then when?

Bitcoin has all the hash power.  The merkle root has effectively
infinite capacity.  We should be asking HOW to scale the = supporting
information propagation system appropriately, not WHEN to limit the
capacity of the primary time-stamping machine.

We haven't tried yet.  I can't answer for the people you asked, = but
personally I haven't thought much about when we should declare = failure.
 
Yes! Lets plan for success!
 
I'd really like to move from "IMPOSSIBLE because... =  (electrum hasn't been optimized
(by the way: you should run on SSDs, LevelDB isn't = designed for spinning disks),
what if the network is attacked?  (attacked = HOW???), current p2p network is using
the simplest, stupidest possible block propagation = algorithm...)"
 
... to "lets work together and work through the problems = and scale it up."
 
I'm frankly tired of all the negativity here; so tired = of it I've decided to mostly ignore
all the debate for a while, not respond to = misinformation I see being spread
(like "miners have some incentive to create = slow-to-propagate blocks"),
work with people like Tom and Mike who have a 'lets get = it done' attitude, and
focus on what it will take to scale up.
 
--
--
Gavin Andresen
 
_______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list = bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= /a>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev = mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
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