Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
	designates 209.85.219.53 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=209.85.219.53; envelope-from=voisine@gmail.com;
	helo=mail-oa0-f53.google.com; 
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <53D1AF6C.7010802@gmail.com>
References: <53D1AF6C.7010802@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 19:35:46 -0700
Message-ID: <CACq0ZD56NuADphK-28zxR=dAPnZOPY4C0GO=zLdOhVxBpRKwoA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com>
To: Ron OHara <ron.ohara54@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e43863f999f04fefb6e2f
Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net"
	<bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Time
Precedence: list

--047d7b2e43863f999f04fefb6e2f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

The upcoming release of breadwallet uses the height of the blockchain to
enforce timed pin code lockouts for preventing an attacker from
quickly making multiple pin guesses. This prevents them changing the
devices system time to get around the lockout period.

Aaron

On Thursday, July 24, 2014, Ron OHara <ron.ohara54@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I thought I should shortcut my research by asking a direct question here.
>
> As I understand it, the blockchain actually provides an extra piece of
> reliable data that is not being exploited by applications.
>
> Which data?  The time.   In this case 'the time' as agreed by >50% of
> the participants, where those participants have a strong financial
> incentive to keep that 'time' fairly accurate. (+/- about 10 minutes)
>
> Is this a reasonable understanding of 'time'? ... aka timestamps on the
> block
>
> Ok... 'time' on the blockchain could be 'gamed' ... but with great
> difficulty. An application presented with a fake blockchain can use
> quite a few heuristics to test the 'validity' of the block chain.
> It can review the usual cryptographic proofs, and check that difficulty
> is growing/declining only in a realistic manner up to the most recent
> block. Even use some arbitrary test like difficulty > 10,000,000,000
> ... on the presumption that any less means that the Bitcoin system has
> failed massively from where it currently is and has become an unreliable
> time source.
>
> Reliable 'time' has been impossible up until now - because you need to
> trust the time source, and that can always be faked.  Using the
> blockchain as an approximate time source gives you a world wide
> consensus without direct trust of any player.
>
> So if this presumption is correct, then we can now build time capsule
> applications that can not be tricked into exposing their contents too
> early by running them in a virtual environment with the wrong system time.
>
> Is this right? or did miss I something fundamental?
>
> Ron
>
> - --
> public identify: https://www.onename.io/ron_ohara
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJT0a9sAAoJEAla1VT1+xc2ONQH/0R09guSNNCxP36KziAjfcBc
> JEhxMpIlqTTYEvNXaBmuPy4BN+IZQ9izgrW/cvlEJJNMmc5/VIBk83WZltmDwcKl
> oo4MIdmp6vz984GWToyyLcLSEDT60UE9Hhe+U9RyF5J9kwbN8Uy4ozUHhFVP/0EL
> q4O1V6ggPbHWgH4q8m8E9qWOlIFXCDgCjxpL8Ptxsk+UlBq2NWMiwTz6Tbc9KOB4
> hOffzXCZV+DkwjFZD2Rc4rHaxw1yLuYr7DzmzwZbhRQclv9tZt9hoVaAT+RQpE1k
> X7pi+zVzeMMng0bzUv8t/G+gq0gaelyV41MJQRparEXhnuYkgU7rAPKIQEG8qpc=
> =T5fw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and
> search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck
> Code Sight - the same software that powers the world's largest code
> search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <javascript:;>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>


-- 

Aaron Voisine
breadwallet.com

--047d7b2e43863f999f04fefb6e2f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The upcoming release of breadwallet uses the height of the blockchain to en=
force timed=C2=A0pin code lockouts for=C2=A0preventing an attacker from qui=
ckly=C2=A0making multiple pin guesses. This prevents them changing the devi=
ces system time to get around the lockout period.<span></span><div>
<br></div><div>Aaron<br><br>On Thursday, July 24, 2014, Ron OHara &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ron.ohara54@gmail.com">ron.ohara54@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
I thought I should shortcut my research by asking a direct question here.<b=
r>
<br>
As I understand it, the blockchain actually provides an extra piece of<br>
reliable data that is not being exploited by applications.<br>
<br>
Which data? =C2=A0The time. =C2=A0 In this case &#39;the time&#39; as agree=
d by &gt;50% of<br>
the participants, where those participants have a strong financial<br>
incentive to keep that &#39;time&#39; fairly accurate. (+/- about 10 minute=
s)<br>
<br>
Is this a reasonable understanding of &#39;time&#39;? ... aka timestamps on=
 the<br>
block<br>
<br>
Ok... &#39;time&#39; on the blockchain could be &#39;gamed&#39; ... but wit=
h great<br>
difficulty. An application presented with a fake blockchain can use<br>
quite a few heuristics to test the &#39;validity&#39; of the block chain.<b=
r>
It can review the usual cryptographic proofs, and check that difficulty<br>
is growing/declining only in a realistic manner up to the most recent<br>
block. Even use some arbitrary test like difficulty &gt; 10,000,000,000<br>
... on the presumption that any less means that the Bitcoin system has<br>
failed massively from where it currently is and has become an unreliable<br=
>
time source.<br>
<br>
Reliable &#39;time&#39; has been impossible up until now - because you need=
 to<br>
trust the time source, and that can always be faked. =C2=A0Using the<br>
blockchain as an approximate time source gives you a world wide<br>
consensus without direct trust of any player.<br>
<br>
So if this presumption is correct, then we can now build time capsule<br>
applications that can not be tricked into exposing their contents too<br>
early by running them in a virtual environment with the wrong system time.<=
br>
<br>
Is this right? or did miss I something fundamental?<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
- --<br>
public identify: <a href=3D"https://www.onename.io/ron_ohara" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.onename.io/ron_ohara</a><br>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux)<br>
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - <a href=3D"http://www.enigmail.net/=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.enigmail.net/</a><br>
<br>
iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJT0a9sAAoJEAla1VT1+xc2ONQH/0R09guSNNCxP36KziAjfcBc<br>
JEhxMpIlqTTYEvNXaBmuPy4BN+IZQ9izgrW/cvlEJJNMmc5/VIBk83WZltmDwcKl<br>
oo4MIdmp6vz984GWToyyLcLSEDT60UE9Hhe+U9RyF5J9kwbN8Uy4ozUHhFVP/0EL<br>
q4O1V6ggPbHWgH4q8m8E9qWOlIFXCDgCjxpL8Ptxsk+UlBq2NWMiwTz6Tbc9KOB4<br>
hOffzXCZV+DkwjFZD2Rc4rHaxw1yLuYr7DzmzwZbhRQclv9tZt9hoVaAT+RQpE1k<br>
X7pi+zVzeMMng0bzUv8t/G+gq0gaelyV41MJQRparEXhnuYkgU7rAPKIQEG8qpc=3D<br>
=3DT5fw<br>
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
Want fast and easy access to all the code in your enterprise? Index and<br>
search up to 200,000 lines of code with a free copy of Black Duck<br>
Code Sight - the same software that powers the world&#39;s largest code<br>
search on Ohloh, the Black Duck Open Hub! Try it now.<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/bds" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/b=
ds</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;Bitcoin-=
development@lists.sourceforge.net&#39;)">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo=
rge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br>-- <br><br>Aaron Voisine<br><a href=3D"http://br=
eadwallet.com" target=3D"_blank">breadwallet.com</a><br>

--047d7b2e43863f999f04fefb6e2f--